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RovingCanary



Member Since: 20 Dec 2023
Location: Somerset
Posts: 79

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Westminster 4.4 V8 Santorini Black

Thanks for the update, for the mid drivers, I cannot find any designed for that purpose and it looks a pain to do.

How does yours sound now? Did you do anything to the rear speakers or the center ? I generally use Logic 7 turned on for audiobooks and podcasts and off for music.

Post #704723 18th Nov 2024 3:41pm
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Siftah



Member Since: 11 Jun 2018
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 347

Spain 2011 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Stornoway Grey

One of the "bass" speakers in my door was bust, so I swapped that for a Focal.

The tweeters were fine, but they were part of the kit so I swapped them anyway. The mid and tweeter share a channel in mine and I kept the original mid and original crossovers.

It sounds much better, but then it's nothing like the audio in my other car (which is a custom install of 8 speaker setup with 8-channel amp and DSP).

For me the Logic 7 sounds ok at listening volume, but it needs more amplification to drive the bass properly and could do with some better control of the DSP than the stock head unit provides.

I didn't touch any other speakers - the centre is only used (AFAIK) for Logic7 and I always turn that off.

If I were to do anything else it'd probably be in this order of preference;
1) Sams sub woofer mod; older box, new driver, new amp
2) replace midrange drivers in front passenger door (they're closest to where I sit)
3) Upgrade the tweeters and midranges in the rear passenger doors
4) The rear pillar speakers in the boot (I doubt I'd ever get this far)

These would all be fairly cheap mods. If I was feeling like doing the job properly I'd rip out the amp+dsp and replace with the Mobridge unit, this would make the biggest difference as I could time-align and properly EQ the whole thing to get the best out of it.

Post #704724 18th Nov 2024 3:51pm
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RovingCanary



Member Since: 20 Dec 2023
Location: Somerset
Posts: 79

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Westminster 4.4 V8 Santorini Black

Thanks, yes my understanding of Logic 7 is essentially turning surround sound on, I would guess (but haven't tested) that the rear pillar speakers would only be used for the Logic 7 as well, like the center.

Did you find a matching midrange speaker for the door? The 2ohm thing means it's a bit harder to find, I cannot see any 3 way kits in 2ohm at all

Post #704726 18th Nov 2024 4:30pm
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Siftah



Member Since: 11 Jun 2018
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 347

Spain 2011 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Stornoway Grey

I'm not sure what the mid-range speakers are in the fronts, they look to be smaller than 10cm, possibly even tweeters put into a 10cm sized housing?

There's some 10cm @ 3ohm here, they'd probably work:
https://masori.de/collections/4-10cm-tiefm...1x3+Ohm%29

Might need 3d printed housings or similar to get them to fit...

Post #704727 18th Nov 2024 4:44pm
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RobsterPC



Member Since: 14 Oct 2024
Location: Kent
Posts: 92

United Kingdom 

Siftah wrote:
IMHO, there's three routes to improve the audio in these, in order of increasing impact;
1) Replace the speakers, with the hope that 10 year newer drivers with more sensitivity will improve the sound quality.
2) Replace the sub + amp, which will give you the ability to increase the bass volume, but not necessarily improve the overall sound quality much.
3) Rip out the amp and DSP and replace with a new 8 channel+ amp and DSP so you can really tweak it all to your preferences, after having already done 1+2.

I was thinking about this today. My challenge with the audio quality is that the bass amplification seems to be non-linear with volume. At lower volumes, the sub is lacking or you have to max out the settings to get good response. Then you turn the volume up and the bass levels increase, resulting in a bass overload, if such a thing exists. My original plan was to try and stick with teh original sub but add an inline amp to tweak the volume levels but I suspect this will simply provide a better bass level at regular volumes then an overload when louder.

To put it another way, I'd like to change the equalisation levels at different volumes to get a more linear/consistent bass level.

Post #704729 18th Nov 2024 4:52pm
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RovingCanary



Member Since: 20 Dec 2023
Location: Somerset
Posts: 79

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Westminster 4.4 V8 Santorini Black

Not in car, but my home TV amp has a dynamic EQ, which will change the EQ as the volume increases, I think it's maybe the human ears which are non linear and don't perceive bass as much as lower volumes.
That sounds a fairly technical modification if not already built into the car, I don't know where you would start without ripping out the head unit

Post #704732 18th Nov 2024 5:09pm
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Siftah



Member Since: 11 Jun 2018
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 347

Spain 2011 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Stornoway Grey

RobsterPC wrote:

I was thinking about this today. My challenge with the audio quality is that the bass amplification seems to be non-linear with volume. At lower volumes, the sub is lacking or you have to max out the settings to get good response. Then you turn the volume up and the bass levels increase, resulting in a bass overload, if such a thing exists. My original plan was to try and stick with teh original sub but add an inline amp to tweak the volume levels but I suspect this will simply provide a better bass level at regular volumes then an overload when louder.

To put it another way, I'd like to change the equalisation levels at different volumes to get a more linear/consistent bass level.


Makes total sense and I've been thinking the same with my other car (where I listen to music more). What I'd like is for DSP's to have an option where you can adjust a level based on the overal volume.

This is basically, AFAIU, why radios have a "Loudness" option, so give extra mid-range and bass when the volume is lower.

My head unit on my other car does have a Loudness option and also an equaliser which can be used to overcome this, but I'd love it to be non-linear and adjustable in the DSP settings, ideally.

As it is, I EQ'd the car based on a normal listening volume of about 75dB or so. That particular car I tend to drive myself (weekend car), so it's not so critical - but for the Rangie I usually have a passenger, so I'd really like to get more bass at a lower level of volume so I can have a conversation but still have good music.

Most decent amp's (especially bass orientated single channel) tend to come with a remote adjustment knob so you can do this btw. The 8 channel amp I have in the other car has an adjuster specifically for the 2 bass channels which just affect the amplification of those channels, which would work - though I hate aftermarket knobs and switches in the car, as a rule Smile

Post #704744 18th Nov 2024 7:15pm
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Siftah



Member Since: 11 Jun 2018
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 347

Spain 2011 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Stornoway Grey

RovingCanary wrote:
Not in car, but my home TV amp has a dynamic EQ, which will change the EQ as the volume increases, I think it's maybe the human ears which are non linear and don't perceive bass as much as lower volumes.


Bass needs a lot more watts to achieve the same perceived volume, yes, exactly. You're moving a bigger physical speaker and an associated larger amount of air to create the noise, so it's logical it requires more current to get you there!

The whole usage of a DSP in cars is still relatively new (as in, our 2011 RR's were quite advanced by having a DSP in them, even if it was incredibly basic and not configurable).

My other car is a 2002 and had a "DSP" as standard, but it's factory tuned by Bose and not configurable - in those days they mostly used a DSP as a way of overcoming lacklustre (read: cheap) components and improve the sound quality for less cost.

The aftermarket DSP I added was also pretty cheap (150 usd or so), but gave me full control over all 8 channels and allowed me to set EQ and time delay across each.

For home hifi I've played around with CamillaDSP, which is a whole other step forward in terms of what you can do with EQ, volumed related EQ, convolution filters etc - but there's nothing quite that advanced in the world of car audio, AFAIK.

RovingCanary wrote:
That sounds a fairly technical modification if not already built into the car, I don't know where you would start without ripping out the head unit


Actually the head unit isn't where this is usually done, they tend to provide just 4 channels of sound, Front-left, front-right, rear-left and rear-right.

Many aftermarket setups only use 2 channels (as most audio recordings are still only 2 channel). But a Front to Rear fader is common.

The head unit in the L322 (2011/2012) provides 5.1 channels via optic (MOST) to (what I understand is) a combined DSP+Amp.

The 5.1 channels will only be populated when playing a DVD, Audio from the CD player, radio or Aux-In is going to be 2 channel still.

The DSP is going to be pre-configured in terms of time delay per channel, but has the configuration from the head unit for Sub channel, Bass and Treble.

The cheapest/easiest option to add a full DSP function, looks to be the Mobridge combined DSP+Amp solution which can accept the 5.1 channel MOST as an input.

You would lose the head unit control of the Sub/Bass/Mid (no great loss), but at least retain an OEM look and the access to the cameras, clock setting, suspension info etc.

The Mobridge DSP doesn't look to be able to do dynamic EQ, but can EQ per each channel, set crossovers more accurately, fix time alignment etc.

Post #704745 18th Nov 2024 7:27pm
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RovingCanary



Member Since: 20 Dec 2023
Location: Somerset
Posts: 79

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Westminster 4.4 V8 Santorini Black

Ah so you can bypass the existing amp in preference for an aftermarket with more power and configurable EQ ? Quite pricey units from Mobridge

I will see how new speakers sound first, I almost exclusively listen via phone, with the 1200w sound of the HD new speakers might be all I need!

Post #704761 18th Nov 2024 9:54pm
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Siftah



Member Since: 11 Jun 2018
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 347

Spain 2011 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Stornoway Grey

Well, it's 1200watts, but at 4ohms rather than 2ohm.

AFAIU, 1200watts @ 4ohm is equivalent to 2400watts at 2ohm, so in theory it's twice as powerful.

They're not actually that pricey for that type of amp, you'll pay 800+ for a non-DSP 8-channel amp with circa 1000 watts into 4ohm anyway.

Post #704773 19th Nov 2024 1:47am
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