I wouldn't think Craig meant you, Mike! Or do you guys have a feud going on that we know nothing about?

sodalis wrote:

Hi Craig, I accept that but the thread doesn't really distinguish enough and for non-experts like me, it is confusing and worrying when one reads some of the views and stories. I'm not sure it helps if we end up believing one might as well not bother as it's already probably too late.

Sodalis, all the experts and non- here are in agreement over the basic issue: sealed-for-life is BS and gearbox oil should be changed. You can, of course, go with sealed-for-life and enjoy the short life of your transmission.

I tend to not see things quite so religiously when it comes to matters like this. There are so many additional variables that play a role in how long a transmission will last that it is impossible to make general statements along the lines of "100k w/o a full Megadeth flush and you are faahkd". Forums are great as a source of information. Don't take everything literally, tho. If you do, you'll never enjoy your RR again. And if you ever make the mistake of going to a medical forum, you might end up committing suicide before one of the many diseases you read about gets you.


As another one of the many pseudo-experts, I will take the opportunity to chime in: IMO Miggit's post above does have the issues with the 5L40E pretty much nailed - although I might be inclined to call overkill on the service intervals. Then again, I prefer a flush and not just a change and that at 60-75kkm, so we are not too different actually. One thing, tho, calling the box weak is incorrect IMO. I have heard of one transmission specialist (and a very renowned one at that - Ashcroft) who stated that there was a shaft that would come apart with too much torque, but I have never heard this from anyone else. And I spoke to transmission specialists in the US who specialize in building high performance 5L40Es. Torque does not seem to be an issue with the 5L40E. Calling the box weak suggests that if you tune the motor the box will disintegrate. Based on personal experience and many contacts with TD6 owners, I do not believe this to be the case. The probs with the 5L40E center mainly around TC LOC wear exacerbated by reduced hydraulic pressure once the LOC particulate causes wear in the valve body. The valve body is too soft (according to Sonnax who make kits to remedy this problem - but I still believe them) and could rightly be called cheese...

My TD6 has had a healthy chipping with gobs of torque for over 220k kms now. And the 5L40 has been happily rowing through the gears behind it for the same number of kms. And I do not drive gently.

And my TDV8 will be flushed at the appropriate intervals as well. 
RRC 2Dr, RRC 4Dr,
P38, and 2 L322s
(wife thinks I'm nuts - prob right, too)

Maybe it is an age thing but I have lived with many vehicles that will bite you back if you don't look after them the least that can be done for gearbox and engine is making sure all fluids are in best condition - never heard of premature failure due to additional fluid flush and change

I would like to add, only owning my td6 for 6 months, I knew when I bought it the gearbox had been changed at 75,000 mls with receipt. Had the oil and filter changed 2 months ago. The oil and filter were very clean and only very small fine deposits were in the sump which I believe is acceptable. My current mileage is 120,000 so 45,000 miles not bad if the oil hasn't been changed in that time. I agree with steve you will not know how the gearbox has been used or abused or how different people drive, I suppose for me time will tell and I shall have another oil and filter change in 20,000 mls time, if it makes it
just my two pence worth.

Right chaps, I can only speak from experience, and what I've learn't reading pages of technical info and talking to several people who rebuild and warranty GM 5L40E gearboxes for a living. And the weakest link is the service schedule, and the optimistic mileages that the oil and filter are expected to achieve. Yes your FFRR will do 75k in most cases, but if you leave the oil change until this time, unless your FFRR has had a very easy life, the chances are that the gearbox will be well on it's way to a rebuild.
I have seen post that say that a new torque converter and oil change at 75k will do the trick and go on for miles and miles. That's great, BUT, what's happened to all of the torque converter clutch that's worn away? I'll give you a clue it does not evaporate.
And as I said before the chap who did my box, couldn't believe the 102k mileage and still working, just, nature of my box. He said to me at the time 50k to 80k is all he would expect to see for one of these.
Now I will admit that my rebuild has not been without it's problems, and I have had to go back on several occasions. It has all boiled down to the valve block being worn to excess, and I now have a completely different gearbox that is 110% fine
So as I was having my doubts about the builder, I did a lot or web searching on both the builder and the box. The result was the box is with its faults, and mostly caused by the TCC. The builder has got an excellent reputation, and I could not find a bad word about him. Further more, he was most shocked to hear of the problems that I was having, and took the car straight back to try and remedy the faults, which ended in a new box, no quibbles, and no charges, first rate service!
Anyway, every time that I went to the builders, they had at least 1 FFRR and on one occasion 3 FFRR's on the ramps, so it ain't like it's a first time with them. He told me that he recommends that the oil and filter is changed every 24k to prolong the life of the gearbox, but in my case, due to the extreme towing that I do, he has said that I should be thinking of changing the oil at 12k. So I have passed this information on, as it was given to me. And when I say extreme towing, I mean it, the last company that I worked for, ran Landcruisers and they had to have annual transmission oil changes to stop their boxes going pop, and even after this they would only manage just over 100k before saying 'I give up'.
And while I would not presume to call myself an expert on FFRR gearboxes, I will say that as I have rebuild 2 automatic transmissions, Ford C6 and Torqueflite 777, and I have a fairly good grasp on how an automatic gearbox works. And I can see that their biggest failings are the sealed for life nonsense that the manufacturers have concocted to save the cost of a dip stick. Yesterday I couldn't spell Engineer... Today I are one!
Inventor of the 'Guide-o-Matic automatic wheel alignment tool'
Former long term L322 owner, Up/Down graded to a Classic Tractor!

Right chaps, I can only speak from experience, and what I've learn't reading pages of technical info and talking to several people who rebuild and warranty GM 5L40E gearboxes for a living. And the weakest link is the service schedule, and the optimistic mileages that the oil and filter are expected to achieve. Yes your FFRR will do 75k in most cases, but if you leave the oil change until this time, unless your FFRR has had a very easy life, the chances are that the gearbox will be well on it's way to a rebuild.
I have seen post that say that a new torque converter and oil change at 75k will do the trick and go on for miles and miles. That's great, BUT, what's happened to all of the torque converter clutch that's worn away? I'll give you a clue it does not evaporate.
And as I said before the chap who did my box, couldn't believe the 102k mileage and still working, just, nature of my box. He said to me at the time 50k to 80k is all he would expect to see for one of these.
Now I will admit that my rebuild has not been without it's problems, and I have had to go back on several occasions. It has all boiled down to the valve block being worn to excess, and I now have a completely different gearbox that is 110% fine
So as I was having my doubts about the builder, I did a lot or web searching on both the builder and the box. The result was the box is with its faults, and mostly caused by the TCC. The builder has got an excellent reputation, and I could not find a bad word about him. Further more, he was most shocked to hear of the problems that I was having, and took the car straight back to try and remedy the faults, which ended in a new box, no quibbles, and no charges, first rate service!
Anyway, every time that I went to the builders, they had at least 1 FFRR and on one occasion 3 FFRR's on the ramps, so it ain't like it's a first time with them. He told me that he recommends that the oil and filter is changed every 24k to prolong the life of the gearbox, but in my case, due to the extreme towing that I do, he has said that I should be thinking of changing the oil at 12k. So I have passed this information on, as it was given to me. And when I say extreme towing, I mean it, the last company that I worked for, ran Landcruisers and they had to have annual transmission oil changes to stop their boxes going pop, and even after this they would only manage just over 100k before saying 'I give up'.
And while I would not presume to call myself an expert on FFRR gearboxes, I will say that as I have rebuild 2 automatic transmissions, Ford C6 and Torqueflite 777, and I have a fairly good grasp on how an automatic gearbox works. And I can see that their biggest failings are the sealed for life nonsense that the manufacturers have concocted to save the cost of a dip stick. Yesterday I couldn't spell Engineer... Today I are one!
Inventor of the 'Guide-o-Matic automatic wheel alignment tool'
Former long term L322 owner, Up/Down graded to a Classic Tractor!

SteveMFr wrote:

I wouldn't think Craig meant you, Mike! Or do you guys have a feud going on that we know nothing about? .

Not that I know of. But going by some of his replies to my responses, I get the impression he is not my biggest fan, hence the question. Just to satisfy my curiosity

Just picked mine up after a full transmission oil change/diffs etc. Latest software update....

Different drive. Nicer by a mile. Judder from 1st to 2nd has all but gone, the smoothness is noticeable too.

Very happy I got mine done. Is this where I put the car details and a bit about myself ?........

miggit wrote:

I have had to go back on several occasions. It has all boiled down to the valve block being worn to excess,

There is a company in the US called Sonnax who have a solution for these issues.

I posted this here back around 2010 ( time flies) but the search function only seems to take me back to 2012. So, copied and pasted from another forum where I had copied and pasted this in 2010 as well:

Actually this is not the case - especially for the GM 5l40E in the TD6. Not all late model transmission fluids are the same and more modern manufacturing tolerances, materials, and construction make it increasingly important to use the proper fluid. This is why the ZF 5HP24 used in the V8 vehicles uses Esso LT71141 (not Texaco) whereas the TD6 uses Texaco ETL-7045E rather than both using a generic Dexron III, IV, or + ATF. BMW even specifies 2 different types of fluid in two versions of the 5l40E used in the X5: Texaco ETL-7045E in the BMW A5S360R and Texaco ETL-8072B in the uprated BMW A5S390R (thanks Bemble!).

I did considerable research on this transmission and spoke to all sorts of people from Ian Ashcroft, to John Mackey, to some very competent folks at Sonnax Transmissions.

The 5l40E has some very real problems - nearly all of which are pressure related. In a nutshell, the biggest wear issues stem from wear in the valve body bores and in the torque converter clutch valve bore. It seems that, for whatever reason, the aluminum used by GM in the casting of these pieces is softer than the material used in other (older) GM transmissions. This wear leads to improper shift/lock-up pressures which in turn leads to premature wear in the rest of the transmission components (which drop particulates into the fluid and exacerbate the wear in the valve bores) and, at some point, transmission failure.

All of the people I spoke to concurred on a number of items:
-'sealed for life' is not a good thing.As the filter is on the suction side of the system, it can't be made too fine as otherwise it would cause cavitation in the pump. These means that wear causing particulates, once in the transmission fluid, are there to cause damage till removed - or transmission failure. Early, regular fluid changes are good and necessary.
- using the proper transmission fluid is vital. The valves tend to oscillate relatively rapidly in their bores and the GM engineers put considerable effort into the interaction of the materials vs. pressures vs. wear problems. Use only the recommended fluid - not all fluid is alike.
- when transmissions are rebuilt, cleanliness is vital as is checking the tolerances in the valves and the pump
- after a rebuild, changing the fluid is almost more necessary than before to reduce the likelihood of a repeat failure

Most TD6 transmissions will fail at between 80-100k miles. Some of the rebuilders I spoke to told me that they make minor modifications such as sleeving the valve bores with a harder material and for this reason, they felt that a transmission rebuilt properly was actually better than ex-factory while other stated that the best one could hope for is back to OEM-spec (with another failure in 80-100k miles).

I would not go to the dealer to buy my transmission fluid, but I would purchase only the recommended Texaco ETL 7045E for a TD6. Anything else is penny wise and dollar foolish IMO.

And another thread from this forum.
http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic13565.html?highlight=5l40

If you are having a 5L40 rebuilt, get a rebuilt valve body. BTW, RRPhil is an engineer specialized in automatic transmissions (engineer in the US-English sense of the word, as in he works for a co. that builds transmissions - he is not simply a mechanic) 
RRC 2Dr, RRC 4Dr,
P38, and 2 L322s
(wife thinks I'm nuts - prob right, too)

whats the latest opinion on flushing the gearbox.

im planning to do the gearbox oil on my tdv8 very soon , 81k miles with no gearbox issues.

Do I drain , new filter and fill? or do I do it twice with no mileage between changes or do I say change the oil and then do it again x miles later? new filter again

confused on all this mega flush , power flush, fill and drain banter , what is best ?

Ditto, all a bit confusing.
Mine is a 08 TDV8 with 55k so interested to know also.
Thank you. Porsche 993 Targa, Buick Skylark Convertable 1968

Just had my gearbox oil changed by an independent - first time after 90,000 miles. Quite pricey - oil being the biggest component of the cost. He did say that ideally I should drive for approx 100 miles then come back and do it again. However he said no big issue as the oil in there now, with the new filter and magnets, will be much better than it was before. What to do? What to do? 2012 5.0L S/C
Previous:
3.6 TDV8
4.4 HSE
P38 4.6 HSE
Classic 3.9
90 County
Series3 Lightweight

Mega flush/Power flush are both the same thing, effectively a dialysis for your gearbox

Double flush, is a drain and refill, twice

As to what is best...

A drain and refill replaces around 4 litres of oil

A double flush replaces between 5.5-6 litres of oil (as the new and old oil mix)

A power flush replaces all 11 litres of oil

im going to buy everything I need and write the procedure down that I got off the ZF youtube video. Going to get my friendly local garage to do the change on the ramp as I can go under the car with him and watch.
Then 100 miles later I will drop the oil and refill myself .

all things considered I think this is the best way

I'm with Mikey on the power flush, if there is nothing wrong with your box then it's the best way to go, if your box is poorly then it won't make it any worse, and could make it last a while longer......

Having said that, partial flushes are much better than nothing and if you are a DIY owner then why not....

Miggit.... Why not fit one of these in the flexible part of the oil cooler lines, I did this on my XC70 as Volvo use a Toyota gearbox but didn't have space for a filter in the sump!!!??!! Worked well and kept the oil noticeably cleaner

http://www.magnefinefilters.com/Magnefine-...-R012M.htm

Can get them on eBay.... Pete

__________________________________________________
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What sort cost to have the filter changed?
Tdv8 6-speed 116k miles
Think I'll have the filter changed at the next engine oil service, doesn't the filter live in the sump so a new sump is required?

Gearbox's usually have magnets to catch the particles don't they?