Hello all,

First post so go easy on me

The back story:

I have had my 2009 3.6 TDV8 for a couple of years now and it has covered 116k. To add to the list of issues that have and need to be sorted, one of my EGR valves seems to be sticking. Sometimes I get an EML, but that sems to occur on longer journeys and is quite rare.

Took to a LR specialist at the weekend (a good friend) so I could use his ramp to rebuild the air susp solenoids and he plugged his diag tool in - one EGR was stuck open and I had a very slight idle fluctuation.

I was sent home with instructions to take out, clean and monitor the EGR's. Out of interest I plugged my diag tool in last night and both EGR's seem to be working.

The questions:

1. I have seen what appear (based upon number of vehicles sold and number of posts on here with the issue) very few who have suffered an EGR fall apart and destroy an engine. Also, my LR specialist has never seen this on a TDV8. Is this a real concern or a case of a few isolated instances causing fear?

2. If I disassemble to clean the EGR's is there anything that can be checked for wear to determine if only a clean is needed or if catastrophic failure is imminent?

3. What is it that detaches from the EGR and enters the engine? The circular bit on the end of the rod (forgive the poor terminology!)?


Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, I have done much searching and reading but couldn't find anything conclusive.

Thanks in advance,

Tom

In the worst case, the EGR valve breaks up and the broken parts are sucked / blown through the intake system, engine & turbos - creating lots of damage on the way to pistons, cylinder head valves and turbo vanes.
I know personally 1 written off engine and have seen reference to at least 5 or 6 more via different forums (all different cars).
The only thing you can check is for cracks in the egr valve heads and valve stems. Best is to blank them out of the I intake system with blanking plates and have mapped out electronically. Paul,
2001 Discovery 2 TD5, 211,000 miles & climbing
2006 FFRR TDV8 Vogue 145,000 miles & climbing
Member of Midland (Land) Rover Owners Club, www.mroc.co.uk

Hi Tom, I’ve started getting EGR faults so have a pair coming for replacement this weekend. At less than £500 in parts it seems worthwhile just to replace them as it’s quite a job to get at them. L322 2007 TDV8 3.6

Pawl, that does sound a tempting option, but I am unsure as to what damage will be done by blanking + damage to my wallet if VOSA ever get the cover off the engine or if I had a crash and insurance wanted to try and wiggle out of a claim because the car shouldn't have been on the road - probably unlikely but they are slippery suckers.

I would be interested to know if those that had suffered with EGR's breaking up had not replaced them for some time prior?

Also, thank you for pointing out how they fail. I guess the valve is a tight fit on the shaft and the end of the shaft is mushroomed to keep the valve in place. The expansion of the shaft cracks the valve over time... maybe.... Quite tempted to try and turn one out of a single piece of steel but that's probably a bit ambitious for my skill level.

Chris, I agree. Although, I am toying with delete or replace. What I do not want to do it replace them only to find a new one has a manufacturing defect that results in failure - but perhaps my glass is half empty after 2 years with this car and having spent almost as much repairing it as I bought it for!

I wonder if one could use the blanking plates with a load of holes drilled in them to create a filter/screen? Then if the EGR did fail the bits would be contained. Might need cleaning every now and then but at least it would be legal and prevent catastrophe.

Tom, I think any mesh or screen would clog quickly leading to problems. I have ordered Valeo ones, which are effectively genuine. I seriously doubt the EGR would disintegrate straight out of the box with no warning, I suspect those that have disintegrated had been ignored and allowed to deteriorate over a long time.

There is only so much you can do ultimately. I’m opting to change mine and to keep up regular oil changes with C1 oil and run Shell advanced diesel. Beyond that I can think of little else.

One thing a respected local Indy told me was drive it like you stole it and it will last longer. 😂 L322 2007 TDV8 3.6

Chris,

I was thinking 5mm holes which would at least stop a larger fragment. Anyhow, probably overthinking it.

As you suggest I should just replace, then I will be able to sleep at night.

I would still be interested to know how many thousands of these cars/EGR's have not failed in a way that results in engine damage. I know it is a risk not to replace them, but then so is everything to some degree.

Will you be cleaning your intake whilst you have it off? I am intrigued as to whether people do this and if so, how - carb cleaner? Someone on another forum said dishwasher... I would be castrated if I did that

You seem like a very knowledgeable chap and whilst Edfors guide on here is great, I thought it worth mentioning that it is my understanding (both from speaking to my mechanic and as mentioned in a post on here - which I will find if it is of interest to you) that one does not need to disconnect the injectors in order to remove the manifold, this negates the need to remove the black shields on the side of the engine. One can wiggle out the manifold from under the loom. Whether or not the shields need to come off to remove the coolers I do not know, but I have no intention of removing them just to replace the EGR's if it is not necessary. Not sure if the thermostats in the coolers should be replaced for the sake of £20 but it is a lot more work and I don't recall seeing anyone saying they should be replaced.

I agree, I was told to floor it and cause kickdown at least once every time I drive the car to stop the turbo actuators sticking - I guess this also helps blast out carbon and force oil down all the lines etc.

I am not sure if links are allowed on here but I would be grateful to know where you purchased from, if you don't mind. There seems to be some variation in price across vendors. I found one for £20, supposedly valeo and on the same site the other side was £230

Hi Tom I used LRparts for the egrs and gaskets. Mainly because they stock the Valeo ones. Advanced factors are my favourite but they had a different brand so i chose to stick with the recommendation.

I’ll take a look at the valve cover manifolds and if they are really bad I will look at removing to clean if not then will just leave them. Prefer not to disturb all the steel hp lines and return pipes if poss.

Having done similar with my D3 valve cover manifold removal is something I would prefer to avoid. Nasty job… I found that most of the real gunk tends to build up in the throttle body / intake manifold which is coming off anyway.

As for being a knowledgable chap. Ask me on Monday 😁 L322 2007 TDV8 3.6

Hi Chris,

Sorry, I was referring to the intake manifold and leaving the loom partially in place.

What do you recommend to clean the intake manifold and throttle bodies on these cars?

From the sounds of it you'll be fine, but let me know on Monday if you have any tips, please!

TomB, for info. the valve heads & valve stems look one piece to me after examining a pair of second hand genuine valves I bought to replace my faulty EGRs - very much like any normal inlet or exhaust valve.
I doubt cleaning them has any significant effect other than psychological - lol.
Most EGR failures are electrical I believe although sticking is possible too. The EGR has an internal position sensor that is used to check what the valve is doing vs the engine ECU instructions & it would appear that this self-checking function is the most unreliable part of the system.
When I tested my old EGRs functionally on the car, they appeared to be opening correctly - but that wasn't what was being reported to the engine ECU - generating fault codes (but no EML on early 3.6 TDv8s)

I'm sure you're correct that it is probably higher mileage EGRs that are involved in the catastrophic failures - but I doubt anybody has catalogued the failures as the other negatives of having EGRs create a lot of motivation to remove them (eg the oily mess they often leave in the inlet system, uneven idle & impact on mpg & electrical failures (probably all when the EGRs are deteriorating).
I'm not aware of any negatives of bypassing them (have a look at the many associated posts in this forum) - other than a theoretical if the engine is dismembered by VOSA. However many people have removed / by-passed them without any problems over many years. Paul,
2001 Discovery 2 TD5, 211,000 miles & climbing
2006 FFRR TDV8 Vogue 145,000 miles & climbing
Member of Midland (Land) Rover Owners Club, www.mroc.co.uk

TomB wrote:

Hi Chris,

Sorry, I was referring to the intake manifold and leaving the loom partially in place.

What do you recommend to clean the intake manifold and throttle bodies on these cars?

From the sounds of it you'll be fine, but let me know on Monday if you have any tips, please!

Hi Chris,

How did your weekend go? Well, I hope! Any useful tips? I will be ordering parts this week. Wondering whether to also do the cooler thermostats whilst in there. Any thoughts?

Best,

Tom

Hi Tom, I have not got onto it yet. My disco has had an injector issue so I had to pull the injectors out of it and take them to a test centre. Can't be without both cars so the Range Rover has to wait it's turn probably next weekend now. L322 2007 TDV8 3.6

To replace the EGRs is totally a wiring harness off, manifold-out, plenum out and coolant drain down job.

To get the plugs off the injectors, you need to remove the shields on the sides of the engine, which also involves removing various bits of trim to get at them.

I also found loosening the fuel rails provided a bit more room.

When you come to unbolt the old EGRs, 2 bolts on each are not visible and you have to do by feel and have a magnet ready to catch anything falling.

As you've done all that work to get to the EGRs, I'd replace the thermostat housing at the same time, which is notorious for failing.

On the driveway, it was a 14 hour job to do all of that for me. And is probably a 10 hour job doing just the EGRs. Top quality hose clip pliers are essential.

I did a previous article on EGRs for the 3.6 which explains exactly how they work and the vulnerabilities of the tubes: https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic60120.html

You can easily check the operation of the EGR and pressure test to ensure the cooling tubes are in good order.

There's also this article on the block: https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic32601.html

In my opinion, there's little to fail on the EGRs except the brush and ribbon inside the electrical housing, which over time suffers from heat and diesel deposits making their way past the valve seal so, it may be wasted cash purchasing an entire unit. If you're getting no cooling issues or coolant in the combustion chambers, I can't see how you'd even need to bother doing a pressure test of the valve itself and I'd instead look at replacing the electrical unit.

You'll probably find the thermostats have got brittle and may even snap when removing so, have new thermostats and gaskets ready, and also new cylinder head coolant hoses if doing the thermostat housing. 2015 Range Rover Autobiography 4.4 SDV8

Hello Gary,

Thank you for your message.

I started today - took way longer than expected!

Kind of gutted that I didn't see your massage before I started, but never mind I have two new EGR's and thermostats in there now. I reused the coolers.

I replaced them because some had experienced the valve breaking up and destroying their engine. Perhaps I needn't have bothered with the whole units but there we go.

Thanks for your links, I had read you post on cleaning - but didn't do anywhere near as good of a job as you.I am tempted to get an ultrasonic cleaner now!

I did drain about 3l of coolant, but I just removed the harness from the passenger side injectors which gave ample room to remove the manifold.

The one thing I did mess up, apart from rushing to try and get it done in one day and having to take things apart again because I missed a step... Like putting the shield back on without putting the manifold in first was I broke two of the plastic vacuum hoses they're so fragile! popped out to halfrauds but they didn't have the right size hose, so I bought some thick vacuum hose and drilled it out hope it works!

Can you recommend some hose clip pliers? I used a mole grips and it was a ba$t@rd! Pinched my finger in them good

I will reserve judgement on how it went overall until I start the engine, but this was my first reasonable size job on this car and as it stands it could have gone much worse.

A pair of straight long reach hose clip pliers. Should be £30‐40.

Best places are probably Halfords, Euro or Machine Mart. Mine came from a car parts store and have a ratchet clamp - especially handy when needing to manoeuvre the hose clip before releasing. 2015 Range Rover Autobiography 4.4 SDV8