Hi all,

Some of you may have seen that I recently bought a 2008 TDV8 vogue at a mega cheap price with suspected seized engine. Turns out, the engine wasn't seized, the 400a mega fuse was blown and preventing the constant power getting to the starter motor, although it was getting the switched live and earth causing the solenoid to throw out and make a 'click' noise when turning the key.

Anyway, moving on, the engine now runs! However there is 0 power, I can just about move the car around on the drive, but currently not even going to try revving it/driving it normally because of A) the fear of causing a diesel runaway, B) the plumes of smoke pouring out of the exhaust, and C) I'm thinking the symptoms could point to turbo, so I don't want to end up with vanes breaking up and getting into the engine, bringing me back to square one.

So anyway, the car starts, runs and sounds fine on idle. When you rev it to 1800 (as much as I've dared, briefly, before shutting it off) it starts to rattle, but both on idle and whilst revving it is chucking out clouds and clouds of white/grey/bluish smoke, and there's a rattle coming from what I'd say is the O/S turbo. Its not easy to tell where its coming from whilst sitting in the car but thats my best guess. It has that oily smell to it, and theres no mayo in the oil, coolant level is fine so I'm happy that its not a head gasket issue. I put the car on a diagnostic machine and it came back with 3 codes, 2 relating to the MAF (one for each) and another which was P023D-21 (Manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor/right-hand turbocharger boost sensor correlation - signal amplitude less than minimum)

I've had a look into this and a few places were suggesting that I check the condition of the turbo, so I've removed the RHS cat/downpipe and a load of oil poured out all over the starter motor. That'll be the smoke. However the impeller shaft doesn't appear to have much play. There is a bit of play there, but its no worse than any other turbo I've inspected. I must admit I've never compared the play on a brand new turbo, but it certainly matches what I've felt on cars with functioning turbos.

So I'm wondering:
Could it still be the turbo at fault? Some kind of seal allowing oil to pass through into the exhaust/inlet without causing excessive play in the spindle?
Is there anything else I should check that could throw up this fault? Blocked crankcase breather, oil drain or something like that? I've priced up a crankcase breather pipe set, and its over £300 so don't want to do this on a whim if not likely to be the issue - has anyone else had a similar problem and could let me know what caused their issues?

Or any other suggestions welcome, the car is currently on my drive so I'm relying on a trolley jack and axle stands for access. If its likely to be a big job I'll get the car moved to a friends workshop but for now want to have a rough idea of what it's likely to be.

Cheers
Matt

If there is oil in the downpipe, the turbo is most likely

It can all be done with axle stands and trolley jacks, but it's not for the faint hearted. At least the RH turbo is easy enough to access.

My concern would be the other turbo, and it's condition of one has already gone...

Hi Mikey,

thanks for that. Is it possible that the turbo's despite no excessive play in the turbine? The rattle I heard did sounds very suspect in terms of turbo, especially given that the fault code being thrown also points to that...

I think I could probably manage the O/S turbo on the drive, with axle stands and trolley jack, and I've been quoted around £250-300 per turbo for a recon from my mechanic friend's trusted turbo place - so I'm quite happy to do both if that's the issue, after all I'd budgeted to be doing an engine swap on it. My only concern though is throwing money at the wrong parts, hence my post here this evening.

I think if it's likely to be the turbo despite the lack of wobbly turbine I'll start with the O/S, see if it gets the car running right, and if it does do the N/S for peace of mind. If I go ahead and do the turbo, is there anything else I'd be wanting to change at the same time, other than the oil, filter and check/clean intercooler? Oil feed/drain I've read about, but looking at the workshop manual the feed looks like a pig to do, have you ever replaced one of those?

Cheers
Matt

Always replace the engine oil and filter, as well as the oil feed pipe. If both turbos are being replaced, it an extra half hour or so to replace it

I only fit new, OEM turbos if I am supplying parts. Had issues with customer supplied recon turbos in the past...

Quick update, the O/S turbo seals have gone and the N/S is totally with bits of impeller blades missing. Is there anything else I can do/check to make sure the engine won't itself after a few hundred miles?

short of checking to see where the bits of impeller blades went.....

I would have the intercooler out and see if that is still in one piece would the bits of the impeller get stuck there?, probably on the intake side, the exhaust turbine bits would end up downstream in the cats. while it is in bits replace the EGR valves as these normally go in the run up to turbo failure in any case, replace the intercooler hoses while the turbos are out.

if the motor ticks over nicely then the chances are that the internals are still sound  There is nothing that can't be fixed with a hammer😜😜
FFRR 4.4 SDV8 Autobiography Santorini Black.
Fiat 500x 1.4 multiair Lounge 2015
2010 LR D4 Commercial 2.7 TDV6

So here's a photo of the N/S turbo - Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't that shaft in the middle have a nut on the end? If so I guess we need to start playing hunt the nut, not sure if the engine would have enough draw to suck something that size all the way into the engine but don't want to take any chances? 3 litres of oil came out of the intercooler when removing the lower pipe, so that will be coming off anyway. Hopefully it hasn't got any further.

The engine sounded lovely on idle before it all came apart - if it wasn't for the complete lack of power and clouds of blue smoke pouring out the back you wouldn't know there was anything wrong with it.

Click image to enlarge

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated

Nah that's fine that

Hopefully the end hasn't ended up in the engine, I suppose the only way to find out is to completely strip it part by part until you find it...... Or make sure it isn't there, but that's loads of work. And ultimately you would have to look inside the cylinders and inlet tract, which you may be able to do with a boroscope.

Start by checking through the oil such came out of the inter cooler, to see if it got stuck there. There is nothing that can't be fixed with a hammer😜😜
FFRR 4.4 SDV8 Autobiography Santorini Black.
Fiat 500x 1.4 multiair Lounge 2015
2010 LR D4 Commercial 2.7 TDV6

. How many km and what's the service history like?

I better start saving a bit harder and add another item to my list , air struts, EGR, turbos. ______________________________
Vogue tdv8 08MY poverty pack - wow

Hi rar, hopefully I can put your mind at rest a bit here:

The car is on 170000 miles, which equates to roughly 275000km. There's no record of the turbos being replaced previously, and they do look fairly original, so I think they've done that mileage. Whilst they do seem notorious, and a lot of LR specialists I've spoken to have experienced a fair few of these issues, it seems that keeping on top of maintenance goes a long way to ensuring longevity on these turbos. The car has been serviced at either main dealers or LR specialists up to 145000 miles (235000km) so has most likely had the correct oil change procedures followed (removing both sump nuts to prevent a build up of gunge blocking the turbo drain)

It's also worth noting that I bought this car recently as a non runner with suspected engine failure, but so far it's only needed the 400a mega fuse on the battery replaced which got the thing running, and the turbo issues are a small job compared with a whole engine which is what I'd budgeted for when bidding on the car at auction, so this is by no stretch a catastrophic failure despite normal driving - I bought the car at a bargain price, expecting the worst, and so far its looking better than expected.

Once the turbos are replaced (along with both oil drain pipes and the oil feed), assuming all is well, I'll be changing the oil twice per 'interval' (I always buy high mileage cars because I love how cheap they are, and most of the big jobs have often been done already, and change the oil often as a matter of course because I rely on my vehicles heavily for work purposes) and allowing the turbo to cool down before shutting off, and fingers crossed they'll see another 170k miles.

Thanks mate. Mine has 250,000km. I was of the same mind re high mileage and value. I was anticipating having to spend some money. But like your car, many things had already been done.

I thing my next purchase will be emulators to disable the EGRs. Australian L322s don't have a DPF so BAS doesn't map out the EGR for my L322. ______________________________
Vogue tdv8 08MY poverty pack - wow

Just another quick update, the nut hadn't gone far at all - It had simply dropped forward into the induction pipe and when it reached its lowest point it settled there. Found within 3 minutes of looking! Presumably the nut wasn't able to get sucked up and through because the turbo had failed in such a way that the turbo wasn't creating any pressure.

So both turbo's are now on along with new oil feed and return pipes. All that's left is to refit the subframe, N/S strut (removed this instead of the front diff which seems to be suggested by most, and found that it gave plenty of room to access the turbo) and do an oil change and then it should be good to go!

Did you get her up and running?

To an extent yes... All turbo stuff finished on weds, but was still pouring out blue smoke from the exhaust full of oil. Got it recovered by a friend to a quiet area and got it hot, drove it around for 20 mins or so until the smoke went. Took it for a 140 mile round trip down to our caravan in Dorset for the weekend and it performed beautifully apart from a slight hesitation around 1500rpm.

If you push on through the flat spot it soon picks up and then drives lovely, but on our morning of returning it gave a very quick puff of blue/grey smoke on startup and had a very lump idle. Once it got up to temperature it was fine again, apart from the hesitation at 1500rpm.

Having done some more research it seems that these exact issues can be caused by a bad EGR valve, and that a bad EGR can cause the turbo to over-spin and cause the issues I previously had. So its back off the road for now, EGRs on order and due tomorrow. I've started stripping it down but the lovely british weather has prevented me getting as far as I'd like with it.

I know a lot of people say that you should do the EGRs as a matter of course when replacing the turbos but due to their location in relation to the turbos I didn't see the point in going to all that extra effort on a whim. It seems one or both was required though. I guess It's also a good opportunity to clean up the inlet manifold and the MAPT sensors as I've read that these being gunked up can cause similar symptoms, and no doubt they will be pretty gunky...

one of my turbos gave up so looking at replacing both, it's either a garage or do it myself. How long did it take you to replace them? I'm handy with spanners and have a good idea of what I am doing. Did you need to get the RR on a ramp or were axle stands enough?