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jonnyboy54321

Member Since: 29 Jan 2016
Location: surrey
Posts: 380

FBH - a Range Rover story

All

Not really done a write up before - but with the proliferation of FBH threads/questions I figured that what I have learnt along the way may be useful to someone. If not. ah well!

So, back story - our FBH worked twice (after I had paired the remote this November- it was fine last winter on timed) then decided just to blow cold air. Helpful in minus 4 conditions. No fault codes were stored when I used my IID tool. Strange (perceived reason why will come later). I had lots of contact with the ever helpful Pat at GAP about it - as the issue seemed to be that the IID couldn't "see" the FBH, despite all settings in CCF being correct. One reason was the little amount of software present on a pre 2009 car he thought. So I did some research. Actually, a hell of a lot of research. Make that a huge amount. Been over at disco3.co.uk and also the rover 75 forum where "frenchmike" is the self-taught FBH guru.

Made the decision to order the diagnostic loom that Martin sells over at d3. This one [/url]http://www.disco3.co.uk/shop/fbh-diagnostic-loom-lead-for-webasto-ttc-p78.html[url] which is different to the d3/4 one as it's six pin not 8. I then loaded the webasto thermo top software to my laptop, and ordered an obd/usb converter loom as well. Something like this [/url]http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122047442649?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT[url] although plenty others are available. Incidentally, in my case, not being particularly computery, loading the WTT software was a world of pain seeing as my antivirus software reckoned with was mega-dangerous - a right pain in the hows-your-father.

So armed with the two looms, the laptop, the software, I set off exposing the top of the FBH. To get to it you need the nf wheelarch liner out. I wont bore you with the details but take it from me - put the car in off road height, leave a door cracked - when you come to put it back in you'll really wish you'd taken the wheel off and put the car on a proper axle stand so just take the wheel off.......did I mention make the car safe? Good.

You'll then see the FBH nestling under the battery. Here is a crappy picture of it partly off it's bracket as that was easier to access connections etc. There's a theme with my pictures - which is that I didn't think to take many for a write up till halfway through the job

You can see in this second pic the red wire of the test loom. Sort of

So I popped out the 6 pin connector, popped in the test loom, connected the blue pin wire to pin 6 of the control wiring plug I had just removed, connected it to the OBD test loom, to the laptop, and......
not a lot. The blue pin wire is for the FBH fuel pump incidentally.

I then decided to put the ignition on, and from what I recall, that made a difference. In the webasto software you can self test the components - which I did. The fan worked, the fuel pump clicked merrily (it is a dosing pump so it pulses, doesn't pump full time). Also tried the circulation pump and the webasto software seemed to tell me it was working too. Now I'd seens some demo's online which showed people using WTT to fire up the FBH. I could not for the life of me work out what was what. Hence several emails to the very very helpful Martin (cheers again pal!) who guided me as to which buttons in the software should work. They didn't, they were greyed out. I could clear faults showing in WTT, but couldn't get it to fire. For reference, outside temp was 2 degrees, but of course I wasn't really thinking was I ? If you have the car's loom disconnected and the test loom in place - the outside temp gauge isn't telling the fbh anything. Doh. At this point it was getting very frustrating indeed, the motor was thankfully in the garage, in bits, Mrs JB was whingeing about the thought of using the spare motor (a half decent Shogun, albeit without a heated steering wheel

, or seats

), and I was generally feeling pretty crap. My thought was - from reading all the various things online - my fbh pcb must be shot and won't communicate with WTT. However, remember, I was able to test some of the components. In nothing other than desperation I pressed the FBH remote. Nothing. So ignition off and off for a cup of tea and contemplation. Resisted beer at this point. Decided just to take the whole unit out. So I unplugged the test loom, and unplugged the 12v supply to the FBH (a 2 core cable next to the 6 pin connector). Don't ask me why, but for some reason I put it back in again with the car's 6 pin loom. Nearly had a heart attack as the unit sprang to life

However.......it sprang to life but didn't fire up. I timed it, and it cut out after just a shade over two mins. More googling - this is a sign that there is a fault somewhere. I lobbed in the IID tool and lo and behold - I had three faults -
in FBH - 0x0304 circulation pump open/short circuit
in HVAC - 0x40 Park heater no response,
in HVAC - 0x41 Park heater message disturbance fault

Now - from what I've gleaned, what these clever FBH's do is in the first few moments is a series of self tests - to check all components are in working order before firing up - ie circ pump, fan, fuel pump etc. If one component isn't - it won't fire and will cutoff after a cpl of mins.Three fails = lockout. In my case it seemed clear that the circulation pump was to blame.

For some reason that neither Pat at GAP nor I can quite work out - no historical faults were stored. However, I had been having all sorts of running issues over the last couple of months, culminating in replacing the EGRs. It's possibl;e the FBH faults have been cleared and not spotted by me, or (wait for it) I had also had the battery off and replaced it at the same time as the EGR and thermo housing work. So I had an FBH in lockout, and the IID tool didn't know it was there as it was locked out and no codes were stored. After more googling, it's clear that you should always start by disconnecting the 12v and reconnecting - or pulling fuse 59 (iirc) which will reset the fbh.

CHECK YOU HAVE DISCONNECTED AND RECONNECTED POWER TO THE FBH BEFORE YOU START. Please. Please please!!!

So at this point, I took the bull by the horns an whipped the fbh off. It has the two loom connections on the top, two water connections, and a fuel pipe connection. In my case the water hoses were on with jubilee clips - I wasn't quite convinced they were factory. The fuel pipe connection is one of those awful little crimped things - the pipework is very delicate so take care - I managed to get it off without cutting the crimp clip. Be prepared for coolant loss. Initially it wasn't much but overnight I lost quite a bit. You can likely get some sort of u shaped coolant pipe connector (20mm is the pump connection) which if put straight in will stop most of the loss. The fuel pipe as I said is from a pulsed pump near the rear of the car that in theory cannot send any diesel out as it's getting no signal to pulse. I went belt and braces and whacked a stopper in using an m5 bolt and washer (again iirc). You can pull the fbh upwards to get it off its exhaust to aid getting it out - in my case one of the exhaust bracket bolts decided to snap. Standard

I then proceeded to get the circ pump off the fbh. Easy. You dont need any instructions other than pop the wiring cover off the top of the fbh, you'll then see many more connections including circ pump loom, glow plug loom etc. Remove the wiring to the pump first. Here's a pic of the pump - on my desk - you can see the pump housing screws are missing - I had it apart.

Click image to enlarge

For reference, the pump on ours was marked Webasto 87187b, Pierburg 7.02073.20 there are a few variations.

Following instructions again found online I took its housing off to see if the impellor was jammed. It wasn't. I then put 12 to the pump connections - and nada, zilch, no action. So it's knackered, basically. That'll be cheap I thought - its only a wee thing.

This post is getting scarily long so I will continue in a part 2.

[/url] 2007 Vogue TDV8 with 255/55/20's fitted

23rd Jan 2017 7:21pm

jonnyboy54321

Member Since: 29 Jan 2016
Location: surrey
Posts: 380

So
Lots of googling later, and a helpful message to Dan at Duckworths, I find that this little pump is well over £200. I looked at the bottom of it and no way is it able to be stripped for repair from what I could tell.
Add in that I have no idea if the rest of the unit is okay - I have a bit of a conundrum.
Do I stump up for the pump in hope? Then have to re-deinstall the unit to whip out the pcb for repair? What to do.....
Do I gamble on a s/hand FBH from a breaker that may either not work, or have had a harder life than my own? And the car is off the road in the meantime, and Mrs JB is similarly "off the road"

After a hell of a lot of cross checking I found that there's a different pump which appears to have the same angled housing (important) and the same litres per hour flow - again important. I was dead lucky to find one in Germany - and it is en-route to me as I type this. What I decided to do in a moment of brilliance (or so I thought) was to leave the fbh off the car, leave the fuel pipe plugged, and put the pump back on solely to complete the coolant circuit. Brilliant, eh? Clever aren't i?

Err, no. Conceptually yes, in practice no. Because one of the two coolant connections is set up to receive from the coolant inlet, and send it through the FBH, so is at totally the wrong angle to use as a return to the (heated) coolant outlet pipe. Cue some swearing and general self-annoyance. Then a bright idea int he shape of fashioning a temporary bracket to hang the pump off, with the hoses connected in such a way that there were no kinks and good unrestricted coolant flow. Rough and ready, but worked for me. THIS IS WHY I MENTIONED SOURCING A U SHAPED COOLANT HOSE JOINER EARLIER. Trust me!

Part 3 to follow. 2007 Vogue TDV8 with 255/55/20's fitted

23rd Jan 2017 7:33pm

RP123

Member Since: 06 Jul 2014
Location: Highlands
Posts: 187

Interesting read - and good luck !

Simon

23rd Jan 2017 8:03pm

Charlyfarly

Member Since: 26 Jun 2015
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 210

2015 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Santorini Black

No offence guys but it must have taken you as long to type this out as it did to fix (?) the problem.
If it ain't broken, fix it till it is.

23rd Jan 2017 8:09pm

jonnyboy54321

Member Since: 29 Jan 2016
Location: surrey
Posts: 380

So, having made the decision that repairing my own unit if it needed it, and having ordered a lucky pump, following some online instructions, I set about stripping the unit. There are plenty of tutorials around, suffice it to say it's quite straightforward. Disconnect and de-route the glow plug cabling first and watch that fuel pipe! Once you have the unit carefully separated, you're left with the heat exchanger:-

you can just see where the fuel pipe exits through in the top right, and also the paper gasket has split like they all do apparently.

The other part is the burner body, to the right in this pic

You can see the fuel pipe at the bottom, treat it gently. Did I mention that? Also see that nice big lump of carbon? That was lying in the bottom of the heat exchanger on the fins. Nice.

Next step was to take the glow pin out. Here's a crappy picture of it removed, lying on top of one of the unit gaskets

There's a clip arrangement to get it out. Easy. My glow pin didn't want to come out - took some gentle wiggling. Here's why:

Lots and lots of lovely (not lovely) carbon build up.

Again following advice I found, I very carefully scraped it cleanish with a screwdriver in the end of the burner. NOTE - IN THE BOTTOM OF THE BURNER IS A MESH/GAUZE. DO NOT DAMAGE THIS AS IT IS VITAL TO FUL METERING, IF YOU DO THAT'S A NEW BURNER AND THEY AREN'T CHEAP. About £170 I think. Having just looked, you can get the gauze, but I am led to believe its not a good job to split the burner to fit it. I eased over the top of the gauze with my cleaning 'driver with the sort of featherlite touch that I am frequently accused of not having

Also sprayed a bit of carb cleaner in there and tipped upside down to drain and dry. Here it is cleaned - again, David Bailey I am not!!

and here's what fell out after cleaning

I tested the glow pin by putting 12v to it. Not for long, a few seconds, that's important. It smoked with the diesel residue, glowed, so seems okay. You can resistance test them - that's electronickery so I haven't donr that but will do and will add to the post.

So up to this point I have:-

Sourced a pump and jury-rigged the coolant circuit so the car can be driven.
Split and decoked the burner, and 12v quick tested the glow pin
Cleaned everything up.

My to-do list is:-

Resistance test the glowplug (IIRC it should be 0.3 - 0.6 ohms but I will check) and only order one if it is out of tolerance - they're about £60 so not cheap.
Order a paper gasket, the rubber one will go again.
Install the new pump
Put it all back together with a fuel pipe clip on the install, and pray that it all works, or:-

take the PCB back off it if it doesn't and send it off to frenchmike to sort out the three resistors that are known to be the weak point.

So watch this space - unlikely to be sorted till next week as I am lording it in Dublin at the weekend. However, if the pump arrives tomorrow though ..... 2007 Vogue TDV8 with 255/55/20's fitted

23rd Jan 2017 8:26pm

jonnyboy54321

Member Since: 29 Jan 2016
Location: surrey
Posts: 380

Charlyfarly wrote:
No offence guys but it must have taken you as long to type this out as it did to fix (?) the problem.

You make a good point. I figured this may help someone somewhere along the line, as there's not much in the way of fullfat specific tutorials that I could find. 2007 Vogue TDV8 with 255/55/20's fitted

23rd Jan 2017 8:29pm

Charlyfarly

Member Since: 26 Jun 2015
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 210

Good point JB.
Still, the article has helped cure my insomnia If it ain't broken, fix it till it is.

23rd Jan 2017 8:37pm

johnboyairey

Member Since: 11 Jan 2013
Location: surrey
Posts: 2035

2012 Range Rover Westminster TDV8 Orkney Grey

jonnyboy54321 wrote:
Charlyfarly wrote:
No offence guys but it must have taken you as long to type this out as it did to fix (?) the problem.

You make a good point. I figured this may help someone somewhere along the line, as there's not much in the way of fullfat specific tutorials that I could find.

You guys do know, that with say, an iPad/phone, you can just use the mic symbol, and dictate your long winded passage, whilst say, on the loo, or in the bath. Making quick work, and ammmending any mistakes after. In this private space, you don't distract other room users, who think you are mad talking all funny.

Also...in the toilet, your long wind-ed passage, 'issue' is dealt with!

23rd Jan 2017 11:23pm

mm289

Member Since: 11 Mar 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 207

2011 Range Rover Autobiography 4.4 V8 Ipanema Sand

Great stuff Johnnyboy, appreciate all the typing! Actually it does take ages to type up this stuff and sort and upload pictures (see my thread on heated seat repair - probably took me most of an evening)

The point is though, if people aren't prepared to do that the rest of us are left stumbling around in the dark, so good on you

Back on topic, I have been down a very similar route just haven't used the test loom or tried applying voltage to various circuits - that might be my next step but will follow this with interest.

I pulled the PCB out and tested the resistors and they came back fine, which was bit dissapointing as I had new resistors ready to go in - still learnt about surface mounted resistors which was a new one to me

Keep up the good work!

Cheers,

MM 2011 TDV8 AB
2006 TD6 AB (Gone to Wales)

24th Jan 2017 5:40pm

jonnyboy54321

Member Since: 29 Jan 2016
Location: surrey
Posts: 380

Thanks for that - restores my faith somewhat. I didn't decide to do a write up to be a sleeping aid for people!

As you say - there's so much info out there but I didn't find much that was FF related. Hence the post.

Well done on the heated seat one - I hope I don't need it (definitely no offence meant there but you know what I mean) - but if I do - thanks for taking the time.
2007 Vogue TDV8 with 255/55/20's fitted

24th Jan 2017 6:06pm

jonnyboy54321

Member Since: 29 Jan 2016
Location: surrey
Posts: 380

MM - have you tried via IID tool? Or tried the power off and on reset? 2007 Vogue TDV8 with 255/55/20's fitted

24th Jan 2017 6:08pm

mm289

Member Since: 11 Mar 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 207

No worries bud

I pulled the fuse to check it was blown so yes, think I have done the power down, but also had the unit of on the bench to clean so again, has defo been isolated from the power source.

IID just gives the glow plug fault but have resistance tested glow plug and lots of the other threads suggest this can be a misleading fault.

Next job is to find the fuel pump and see if that is knackered as there is no fuel getting through, but whether that is an FBH sending fault or a pump fault is anybodys guess

And its dammed cold, and I can't get it on the ramp at the moment and I am enjoying heated seats and steering wheel and I am struggling with motivation to pull it all apart again - apart from that.......

MM 2011 TDV8 AB
2006 TD6 AB (Gone to Wales)

24th Jan 2017 6:16pm

jonnyboy54321

Member Since: 29 Jan 2016
Location: surrey
Posts: 380

So

I believe the fuel pump won't be pulsed by the pcb if there is a fault. Could be something to do with flooding the unit I wonder?
You can pulse the pump with the Webasto software but you need the test loom. Very clear clicking - like dead obvious. When my FBH sprang into some sort of life, no sound from fuel pump, because it wasn't really alive due to the circ pump fault.
If the glow plug is ok, my money is on the circ pump.
If you want to borrow the looms, I can post them to you. They're not expensive to be fair.

What resistance reading did you get on the glowpin? 2007 Vogue TDV8 with 255/55/20's fitted

24th Jan 2017 8:11pm

gregdav

Member Since: 26 May 2014
Location: just north of stafford
Posts: 1077

Really good write up JB. Well done so far.
totally agree about the info out there, it's quite sketchy.
Looking forward to the next read.

25th Jan 2017 6:40am

mm289

Member Since: 11 Mar 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 207

@John, from memory the resistance was 0.4 ohms, but it was within the advertised range.

Borrowing the loom when you have finished would be a great option, thanks!

I pulled the pump apart and it was all running freely, but didn't put voltage across it so it could well be that. I had also thought about rigging up a loop for the coolant system so I could run the RR without the FBH in line, but again it was a lot of faff at the time!

Cheers,

MM 2011 TDV8 AB
2006 TD6 AB (Gone to Wales)

25th Jan 2017 9:06am

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