We are allowed to have differing opinions, so let's all just agree to disagree.

Oddly enough I am on a Range Rover forum because I am a fan of them, with their positives and negatives, they are not perfect but they certainly have character and something about them compared to most brands like BMWs & Teslas etc. Tom

Current Drive
2011 4.4 TDV8 Autobiography - Santorini Black - Ivory Leather

Previous Drives
2004 Model Vogue Td6 (Touchscreen) - Java Black - Parchment Leather
1994 RR Classic 3.9 V8 Soft dash - Niagara Grey - Grey Leather
1972 Series III SWB Safari - Green (Hand Painted) - Black Plastic

AJGalaxy2012 wrote:

Martin2 wrote:

7.5p is only available for 4 hours a day, so c110 miles of range. Fine for a lot of people, but wouldn’t work for me which really pushes up the cost per mile. You also have to take into account the cost outside those 4 hours, so all your other electricity requirement plus any range above 110 miles. They want 39.35p per kWh if I signed up now vs my current rate of 27.63, so 42% more expensive. People on older deals may have better rates? At the rates I’ve seen, quoting less than 2p per mile for running an EV isn’t true, even if 100 miles charge a day works for you, you have to take into account the extra cost of running your household.

I’ve not run the numbers to be 100% sure, but I’m fairly confident staying with my current provider could be cheaper even if I ran an EV.

As I’ve said before, as a company car or even leasing one through a green salary sacrifice scheme makes sense, but otherwise the huge savings just aren’t there. Not when you take into account the level of depreciation (in £ not %), charging away from home, increasing electricity prices etc.

Range would be an issue for me too, 300-400 miles pretty much resolves that, but that’s got to be 15-16 hours charging time at home…I wish I was at home that long in the week!

Going back to cost….let’s assume a 115 kWh battery for a 400 mile range and to make my case better, you need to charge that in one go… on Octopus that would cost £36 and on my tariff it would be £31.78. Even dropping to an 85kwh battery, £24.27 vs £23.48. Then all your other electricity usage wou,d be 40% more!

Your argument is flawed and youre not comparing like for like eg tariffs, youre taking the current Octopus GO tariff and making comparisons to one youre on.

For example Octopus GO has a daytime rate of 38.82p and an off peak of 7.5p. Octopus 12m fixed from August 2022 is 70.16p so as you can see the daytime units are cheaper on GO. You also gain in that overnight you can load shift so immersion heater, washing machine, tumble dryer and dishwasher all benefit from the 7.5p rate.
I can also run my EV from Solar absolutely free!

Why is it flawed? Imho of course, but it’s less flawed than one quoting 7.5p per mile while ignoring the other 20 hours a day!

I went on the Octopus website, entered my postcode and used what they offered and compared it to the current rate I’m on (std variable tariff)….so that’s a true like for like co parison surely? The rates are very similar to what you’ve quoted too, I could run the dishwasher overnight and I guess the washing machine but that’s it.

I don’t have solar…yet.

So, for me (and many others), my calculations are fairly sound.  MY23 Panamera E-Hybrid
MY19 SDV8 Autobiography - Sold

Quote:

We are allowed to have differing opinions, so let's all just agree to disagree.

Quote:

Why is it flawed?

AJGalaxy2012 wrote:

But of course most EV owners will charge at home on 7.5p kWh and most EV's will manage at least 4 miles per kWh. Making the cost 1.87p per mile.

Lets say 30 mpg on petrol @£1.74 per litre thats 26p per mile in fuel. Add in servicing, road tax etc and it's still way cheaper to run an EV.

The average price for rapid public charging is 60p kWh, so that works out at a whopping 15p per mile (even using the OP's incorrect figures its still only 21p per mile), still a good amount less than petrol. There are of course many places that offer free charging which makes it even cheaper, I havent seen any petrol stations giving free fuel!

Yes EV's cost more initially but theyre worth more at the end and depreciate more slowly than ICE equivalents. The total cost of ownership is lower by miles than ICE vehicles.

The OP (me) didn't expect a war it wasn't my figures either, it was the RAC, an extract from the Daily Telegraph. 2018 SE SDV8 4.4 Byron Blue

MikeO wrote:

I drive both an ICE and an EV. I don't consider myself a fan boy but I have been very surprised by the EV. Are they for everyone? Of course not and nobody is suggesting that. But the sort of FUD I see regularly posted on this forum does frustrate me. Why can't people just see past this sort of nonsense?

We've done about 20k miles in our EV over the last year or so and probably saved £3k on fuel even against an economical ICE.

If you're doing more than 600-700 miles a week or can't get a charge point installed then it probably doesn't make sense today.

But for many people it's a great option. Don't try and pretend the economics don't make sense.

MikeO wrote:

Quote:

Why is it flawed?

Because you were suggesting we were misrepresenting the benefits to us. We are not. Your reality may be different.

As I read the post(s), it was suggested that switching to Octopus Go would make the maths in an EV work, so I looked at their rates and it wasn’t the case. I did ask if others were on better rates, the ones I were subsequently given weren’t enough to make a difference to my comparison.

Anyway, I use ‘man maths’ all the time to justify buying things I want and have no issue with anyone else doing the same  MY23 Panamera E-Hybrid
MY19 SDV8 Autobiography - Sold

I agree, the original topic was about the huge increase in electricity cost affecting the previously obvious cost advantage of EV over ICE which does have a point, although as per all media hype there are holes in the article.

I think whilst EV and Hydrogen have some fascinating future options, the current explosion in kwh pricing will make a huge dent in the cost advantage. Fingers crossed, as with oil and gas the pricing for electricity should fall in the medium term, but it will take time and is open to abuse from corporations and govt interference and tax policies. Also modern technological developments with rechargeable batteries should make EVs less dependent on rare and finite materials. Many alternatives are being developed but it is early days, although things move so fast nowadays. Will be interesting to see the new all electric Range Rover due soon.

My gut feeling and one from an environmental point of view would be to mix EV dept with converting existing vehicles to hydrogen as per JCB's research. Making existing cars less polluting and more efficient saves far more than just throwing them away. Tom

Current Drive
2011 4.4 TDV8 Autobiography - Santorini Black - Ivory Leather

Previous Drives
2004 Model Vogue Td6 (Touchscreen) - Java Black - Parchment Leather
1994 RR Classic 3.9 V8 Soft dash - Niagara Grey - Grey Leather
1972 Series III SWB Safari - Green (Hand Painted) - Black Plastic

Martin2 wrote:

I think that’s a fair assessment, but the economics will get tougher. I wonder what the depreciation is compared to a similar size combustion engined car and whether that’s more or less than £3k.

I have been considering a ICE as I do short local journeys with maybe 1 x 300 mile journey a week, the thing I’m struggling with is exactly that 3k saving in fuel over 20k miles doesn’t go a long way to cover the EV uplift in the initial purchase price?

I was looking at the VW ID’s and they seem to command a considerable premium over their ICE equivalent that erodes the long term savings. It’s on my job list to do a total TCO comparison. But I also have to consider that the ultimately purchase reason would be to reduce our impact.

I love the Volvo approach to reporting the carbon impact and break even points vs ICE which ultimately is what would drive my switch rather than cost. Right now the break even is at worst 70k it seems on the C40.

https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media...report.pdf

It’s hard to compare depreciation in the current climate, I picked up a 15 plate EURO6 MY16 Autobiography for just over 36k back in 2019 with 32k on the clock and LR Approved warranty.. I could have probably sold it for more than that during the pandemic! That’s not usually the case with these cars  Sold - Bell a 2015 MY16 Loire Blue Autobiography 4.4 SDV8
Previously George a 2007 MY07 Java Black VSE 3.6 TDV8
Previously a 04 MY04 Defender 90

Flashman wrote:

My gut feeling and one from an environmental point of view would be to mix EV dept with converting existing vehicles to hydrogen as per JCB's research. Making existing cars less polluting and more efficient saves far more than just throwing them away.

Martin2 wrote:

Why is it flawed?

Quote:

Imho of course, but it’s less flawed than one quoting 7.5p per mile while ignoring the other 20 hours a day!

Quote:

I went on the Octopus website, entered my postcode and used what they offered and compared it to the current rate I’m on (std variable tariff)….so that’s a true like for like co parison surely?

Quote:

The rates are very similar to what you’ve quoted too, I could run the dishwasher overnight and I guess the washing machine but that’s it.

Quote:

I don’t have solar…yet.

Quote:

So, for me (and many others), my calculations are fairly sound.

Non so blind as them that dont want to see  BMW i3 Electric Car
2012 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8 (now gone)
2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi V6

Aberdeen were running 15 hydrogen buses. Apparently out of service because of “technical issues” though they are stated to have passed a million miles in service. John
2008 Stornoway Grey 3.6 Tdv8 Vogue
2005 TD6 Java Black Vogue - Written off!!
GAP iiD BT
2003 Discovery TD5 Auto, Nanocom Evolution - gone to a new home!
MasseyFerguson 152 - No electronics!! - Sold

Yes it can be done but it's not just a simple conversion to run Hydrogen and the fuel is extremely expensive.

In contrast, local councils are running dust carts as EV's, DPD have electric vans as do Amazon. BMW i3 Electric Car
2012 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8 (now gone)
2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi V6

AJGalaxy2012 wrote:

Martin2 wrote:

Quote:

I don’t have solar…yet.

Then youre losing out big time.

I’d be interested in your experience with them, I thought the pay back on solar was very unlikely to happen within the often quoted 5-7 years since the end of the old feed in tariffs, and often only just within the lifetime of the kit.

I work with a few guys who track it obsessively one even has batteries and neither are seeing savings and admit they only have them to “do the right thing”.

Our house is south facing, so seems like a no brainier but so far most people have put me off them, suggesting waiting until the tech improves. Sold - Bell a 2015 MY16 Loire Blue Autobiography 4.4 SDV8
Previously George a 2007 MY07 Java Black VSE 3.6 TDV8
Previously a 04 MY04 Defender 90