It is a great engine and I would also be much more confident it in than the Ingenuim hybrid engine

In a relatively lightweight for its size RWD 7 series, it was noticeably quicker than my wife's Golf R (especially at higher speeds) but could easily achieve 40mpg on the motorway if I kept it to 80mph. MY23 Panamera E-Hybrid
MY19 SDV8 Autobiography - Sold

I'm deciding whether to wait for the PHEV or go with a D350 (I currently have a SDV8 and like the torque).

I don't do many miles per year now, probably 6k. About 50% longer journeys and 50% local. With so few miles is the PHEV worth while given I'd need to install a charger at home? Plus, will the PHEV waft like a RR should as it switches between each mode on longer journeys or when acceleration is required?

I have zero experience of driving a PHEV or EV. MY23 D350 HSE
On my 7th RR plus various other JLR vehicles

Phil. wrote:

Great choice! I have the BMW 4.4 V8 in an M5 Comp and it’s sublime. I expect it would be easily tuneable in the RR, if desired.

As for the extra £27k, as we all know it’s not about purchase price it’s about depreciation. The new RR looks like it will have a typical deprecation rate. Your discounted L405 will probably have a lower depreciation rate initially but not for long. Either way you’ll still lose £10k-15k on average per year on both. So I think there’s little in it on the long run. Keep the one you like best

Out of interest I bought my current L405 in June 2020 with a massive discount. I put the Reg in the LR P/X valuator this week and they offered (estimated) just £2k less than what I paid 10,000 miles ago. I need to get out of it before the depreciation kicks in.

I've put the details for mine into both the trade in calculator and Motorway and they come out pretty much the same, which is £2k more than I paid 17 months / 18k miles ago! But everything else is more expensive than I'd expect, so it's not really a benefit other than on paper. MY23 Panamera E-Hybrid
MY19 SDV8 Autobiography - Sold

Completely agree not to let go of your RR now because it will probably be a year before a new one arrives.

I’ve always thought that the EV agenda was a con. How can it be environmentally friendly to dig up all these precious minerals and fly them around the world, and repeat after 10 years when the battery needs replacing? Then, as you point out, consider the ethical issues. Hydrogen research still has a way to go though. MY23 D350 HSE
On my 7th RR plus various other JLR vehicles

aja500 wrote:

Anyone else like me, think that in 5-7 years time, when we all realise that owning an electric car is neither practical, nor ethical, that we'll all be reverting back, with manufacturers then looking to develop more environmentally friendly internal combustion engines?

For those who don't know about the unethical practices associated with mining to produce car batteries, see excerpt here from The Times Newspaper:

Cobalt is primarily mined in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), where so called “artisanal miners”, who have been known to employ unethical practices such as child labour, are prominent — although they only represent 10% of the cobalt sold in the DRC by value, they employ up to 200,000 people, 185,000 more than Glencore, the biggest western company operating in the country.

Some car companies have vowed not to use Congolese cobalt, but, because the African nation is responsible for three quarters of the global supply, such promises are not easy to follow through on.

Phil. wrote:

I’ve always thought that the EV agenda was a con. How can it be environmentally friendly to dig up all these precious minerals and fly them around the world, and repeat after 10 years when the battery needs replacing? Then, as you point out, consider the ethical issues. Hydrogen research still has a way to go though.

I actually said ‘’fly the precious minerals’’ not batteries. Is ‘’ship the batteries or minerals’’ a better term? They have to transport all the stuff to make the batteries to factories some how.

Do enlighten me if I’m on the wrong track though and all the minerals, battery making and car making factories are all located together near to each other and their customers. MY23 D350 HSE
On my 7th RR plus various other JLR vehicles

aja500 wrote:

As many of you know, I have a new L405 LWB, 5.0 SC Autobiography coming to me next month, (all being well) which I am still very much looking forward to.

One or two of you also know, that I have decided to hedge my bets and I've also paid a deposit on a new L460. Which car will ultimately stay and which will go will be decided once both have been delivered.

I got a cracking deal on my L405, and to spec like for like on the new L460, actually works out at more than I initially thought. I checked again last night on the configurator, and the same spec L460 with the new 4.4 V8 works out at a total of £37,000 more, when factoring in the £4,500 finance contribution, discount received, reduced base price etc.

So, if I do decide to part with the L405 next year, I doubt I'll make much of a loss despite the new model, especially when also taking into account the extended lead times on new, and general shortage of used cars that currently shows little sign of improving.

If I decide not to keep the L460, I can stick it in the garage for a few months, then sell it on with delivery miles for same money, if not a slight premium.

Moving on to my question, in light of the "like for like" price difference above, I'm not sure I'd need to go for the largest engine on the L460. Also, the L405 has one or two other element as standard, which are now cost options that I wouldn't choose to select, thereby bringing the price down further of the overall cost of the L460 (rear seat entertainment, cabin pre conditioning, etc are now cost options).

The question is, do I select the L460's P400 MHEV 3.0 Petrol engine which is available now, or wait for the P510E PHEV which will be made available in early 2022?

Is the P400 MHEV identical to the outgoing L405 3.0 petrol engine?

If so, is it good or bad, would you recommend it?

If it is a completely new engine, does anyone have any views on what to expect?

With regards to the P510E PHEV due to be released in early 2022, most of my journey's in this car will be long distance, so is there really any benefit?

And, if a P510E PHEV provides circa 60 miles of electric range, what does is actually cost to charge a car to that level, is it really that much cheaper than petrol, especially with the significant increases in energy prices that we keep hearing about.

As always, your thoughts and opinions would be greatly appreciated.

I have to admit, I’m an interloper as I’m interested in a new L460 but currently have a RRS HST with the P400 engine. I did a lot of research on the engine before bought my new HST a year ago as to whether it was the right engine for me and the type of mileage I do. The PHEV vs MHEV debate I’ve been through and I can say that the MHEV works for me, although my wife has a new Disco Sport PHeV which works really well for her! I call mine the thinking man’s SVR, it maybe not quite as quick (about 1 sec slower to 100kmh) but circa 40% better economy and still sounds good, albeit not V8 good but I can live that within this day and age! I’ve now done 14,000 miles in it and I continue to be amazed at it’s economy versus performance - a recent return trip from Bristol to Glasgow saw over 32mpg at a cruise at 80mph, yet it can can certainly out accelerate most things should you need. My car does mostly long distance mileage - a colleague has the P400e which really works with his local commute for him, but on a longer journey, is less economical than my P400, so as others say, it depends entirely on the nature of your driving. I’ve been really impressed by the 3 litre ingenium petrol and wouldn’t hesitate in getting another, although admittedly, I’m really impressed by my wife’s PHEV for local runs - it’s 2 months old, has done just over 2000 miles (her commute is circa 22 miles each way and she’s installed chargers in her business) with an average of 96mpg. I definitely agree with Harry’s garage around the serenity of electric power in town, it’s a totally different experience! Given the family use my car for the longer journey, I think this really demonstrates the utility of a PHEV vs a MHEV.

I’m thinking of a new L460, like certain aspects of the new design and I’m sure the rest will grow over time. I went from a Disco to a RRS and to be honest, I think the RRS is a tad on the small side with 2 large dogs and still 2 kids at home, but the handling and performance make up for it in my mind! Question is when to change, a recent quote on WBAC gave me a value similar to what I paid for it new, so do I take benefit of that now and order a L460 with no discount, or wait longer but supply of RRS might improve and residuals drop quickly - 1st world problems! Any thoughts?

On the last point (and I’m in a similar position) you would need to give up your RRS now to obtain the current valuation, whereas it’s likely it will take 6-12 months before you take delivery of a new L460. It means the decision about cashing in your RRS at its current value and ordering a new L406 are separate. MY23 D350 HSE
On my 7th RR plus various other JLR vehicles

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts Swiggy, some good information there.

With regards to when to sell, as Phil says, now would be a great time, but I'd say only if you have another car available to drive.

The friend I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, who's sold his L405 a couple of weeks ago, is now considering looking for something else to drive, which ultimately he will pay a premium for..... So what was the point, he might as well have kept the L405!!

Sell now if you have access to another car you're happy driving, if not, then don't.

Selling now is unfortunately not for me - I’d be into fighting 2 of my kids for the keys of the Ford Fiesta ecoboost, so whilst perfect for them learning to drive, not sure it’s one for towing to the skip, dashes down England etc! My only thought was that given the supply chip problems which seem to be forecast to remain for the next 6-12 months, and with JLR clearly going to prioritise these chips into the new Range Rover before the new sport is launched, then maybe residuals will remain higher than expected when I bought mine! In any case, there’s work to be done on SWMBO and ai’d probably want to see one in the flesh first. Plenty to think about and thanks for your advice!

5.0 wrote:

If most of your journeys are long distance then I don't think the hybrid makes any sense. Most of the time you will be lugging heavy batteries around that will be doing little other than blunting performance, dynamics and fuel economy. Hybrids only make sense if you are doing a lot of short journeys where you can run on electric most of the time and keep charging up at home or work. Also if you gain from any tax benefits.

That’s very useful, Mike. Thanks.

I think I’ll go for the D350 then, which means I can get an order in sooner  MY23 D350 HSE
On my 7th RR plus various other JLR vehicles

That may be a wise decision. My dealer (Jardine/MK) is saying that they dont expect to know prices of the PHEV models until early next year and I'd be lucky to get delivery before the end of the year. Maybe a good strategy would be to order a D300 or D350 now and by the time you had to make a final decision on spec, you'd know more about the price/spec/delivery of the PHEV models and you could change your order if the PHEV proved more attractive? In fact I might do that myself

Two other characteristics of the P400e I didnt mention and I definitely dont like are the throttle response from standstill and the brakes. The drive train seems to take an age to decide whether it wants to step off in electric or hybrid mode and pulling out from a minor road onto a busy main road or finding a gap to pull out onto a roundabout definitely takes some planning which I find very irritating. And the brakes are inconsistent in feel which I guess is due to the regeneration system. I would want to know that L-R had improved the PHEV system in both these areas before I ordered a 440e or 510e