First time posting here for a few years! Greetings to the few stallwarts from the good old days of disco3!!

I've owned my FFRR TDV8 from new and it's now 10 years old with 130k miles. Even after all this time, I still love the car and it's possibly been the best vehicle I've ever owned. Yes, there's been a few issues over the years, but nothing really nasty. I've had an alternator fail once which gave the christmas tree lights on the dash. I've had turbo vanes stick on a couple of occasions (so I know what limp mode is like.) I've had a height sensor fail, so I know what it's like to drive at speed with no air in the struts (frighteningly bouncy!). Other than that, the car has been a peach and she's seen more than her fair share of off-road use too.

Yesterday, I was pulling out onto the dual carriageway, foot down, when I heard a short hiss followed by 'Engine System Fault' and limp mode (restricted engine revs only). No dash lights, no suspension drop, just no way to get above 30-40mph on the flat and 25mph on a very slight incline. I immediately diagnosed a split turbo hose before I'd even got into the left land of the dualler!!

Fortunately, I was only a few miles from home, so managed to get back to the driveway and switched off. I then set-about removing the turbo/intercooler hoses to find which one was split. I'm not just talking about the two easy ones either - I removed ALL FOUR hoses and cleaned / checked them thoroughly. The lower hoses are a pig of a job when your on your back in the driveway - especially the right side (drivers side), where Land Rover made the innaccessable jubilee clip even worse by having the hex-head parallel with the chassis leg, where there is insufficiant space to get a 1/4" socket in there.

Anyway, none of the hoses turned-out to be split at all...!!!

Ths morning, I drove (at 20mph on back roads) to my local respected indy LR garage (who have serviced my vehicle from brand new) and they plugged in the diagnostics to reveal that one of the MAF's was reading about 10% of where the other one was. After a sigh of relief, we quickly changed the (apparently) faulty MAF with a brand new one to discover that this made no difference whatsoever. We then swapped the plugs to the MAF to see if it was a cable fault, but the plug which was reading low turned-out to read properly on the other MAF.

In conclusion, we're a bit stuck and I'm posting here to see if anyone has had a similar experience.

Symptoms as follows:

At a standstill, the car starts instantly and revs like a new car.
There is NO EXHAUST SMOKE at all.
The revs go cleanly up to 4.5k

Once on the move it is immediately apparent that there is a lack of power.
She'll rev through the range once or twice under load until the 'Engine System Fault' appears.
Thereafter it's back to 1500rmp with the foot on the floor.

Live fault codes at idle show one MAF at 178 whilst the other is at 20. Revving the car gives MAF readings of 350+ one one and about 70 on the other. Changing the MAF makes no difference. Nothing else of note in the fault codes and zero exhaust smoke.

The obvious thought is the turbo has seized, but I'd expect to see something untoward out of the exhaust if this were the case. Is it possible to have a failed turbo without any physical signs in the rear-view?

The car is totally standard with zero modifications to EGR's or such like. Anyone got any suggestions - in particular if a seized turbo is possible to have smoke-free engine revving???

John The older I get, the more I realise that people confuse wrinkles for wisdom

Shortly, to answer your question, yes. It's absolutely possible to have a seized turbo without anything untoward from the exhaust. I have yet to mess about with the turbos on my RR (except the split hoses), but I've worked on quite a few. In most cases, a failing turbo bearing will cause excessive radial movement of the shaft, which in turn knocks out the oil seals and you will have the tell-tale blue smoke long before anything seizes up. However, it can also happen very quickly and without warning if the turbo is starved of oil. I've seen this on a marine Volvo engine, where a recently overhauled turbo seized after about 30 seconds due to a piece of rag in the oil inlet. A lack of oil to the turbo will kill it without any smoke appearing in your exhaust.
Another possibility which I have just learnt about (check the thread on the dead 3.6), is that your EGR has fallen apart, dropping one or more pieces into your turbo. That will also stop your turbo from spinning without dumping any oil in your intake. You can have really bad luck, like this other fellow, and have pieces of turbo and EGR ingested by your engine, or you can be lucky and have everything stop at the turbo without going further. My best advice is DON'T DRIVE IT any further before this has been ruled out.

Good luck!

Have you checked the 4 short 90 degree hoses under the engine cover for damage?
Worth a look before checking the expensive stuff!

There are also 2 more hoses that connect the turbos to their mounting, they are quite short but maybe a possibility ? 2015 4.4 AB
GSXR 1000 K5
R1 1998

Thanks gents. The garage have had a camera up the turbo intake pipe and they can see that the blades are not spinning. This explains why the MAF appeared to be reading incorrectly when, in fact, it was obviously right.

What we don't know yet is whether the bearings have been starved of oil (I don't expect this to be the case as the car has been over-serviced thgroughout its life!), or whether there is a physical stop on the blades. Also, the camera can't say what's happening on the hot side for obvious reasons!

I've asked them to check the EGR valves first, although I suspect we'll still be replacing the turbos anyway. The point being that we don't want a new turbo to suffer the same fate if there's stuff loose in the exhaust area. The older I get, the more I realise that people confuse wrinkles for wisdom

OK, best of luck to you!
Please keep us posted on findings and progress. Have you been quoted a price for replacing the turbos?

100% recommend getting the EGR's out and inspecting for missing parts. It should be obvious. For the cost of the gaskets, its an easy one to rule out and vital with your symptoms of jammed turbo blades.

You might be "lucky" to find a piece lodged in the turbo intake side. __
2018 L405 3.0 TDV6 Vogue SE Fuji White
2000 4.6 V8 HSE Oxford Blue
1994 3.9 V8 Vogue Ardennes Green - resto project

Land Rover History:
2010 3.6 TDV8 Autobiography Stornoway Grey
2001 Discovery 2 TD5 GS
1999 Discovery 2 V8i XS
1994 Discovery 300Tdi
1993 Discovery 200Tdi
1989 Range Rover Vogue SE 3.5EFi
1976 Series 3 2.25
1977 Range Rover 2 door 3.5 Carb

must be the season for it mines behaving in a similar fashion she drives fine then then i get the engine system failure warning along with special programmes inactive however if i turn it off and back on again it clears and drives fine. I have changed both the MAFs which seemed to cure it for a coupe of days now it's back again and to add to this the rear drivers side brake comes on ?.The brake pipes where renewed a short time ago and it's going back to them tomorrow for a calliper rebuild and diagnostics session and i'm going to get them to reset the ecu L322 2008 vogue
R53 Cooper S Works tuned beyond the works SOLD
R33 Nissan Skyline in rebuild 400bhp atw

j_rov wrote:

100% recommend getting the EGR's out and inspecting for missing parts. It should be obvious. For the cost of the gaskets, its an easy one to rule out and vital with your symptoms of jammed turbo blades.

Ivor wrote:

must be the season for it mines behaving in a similar fashion she drives fine then then i get the engine system failure warning along with special programmes inactive however if i turn it off and back on again it clears and drives fine.

Sounds like it could be the (variable) turbo vanes getting sticky. Get them lubricated, but don't waste your time with the main stealer. Town & County used to secretly send cars down to Mann Automotive in Laurencekirk in order to get the turbo vane lubrication done, because nobody in Aberdeen had the ability to do it and the dealer handbook says it can't be done. Mann developed their own convoluted tool for the job.

Anyway, the upshot of all this is the car is getting two new turbos, a new intercooler, new turbo hoses and a new a/c condenser to boot. The bill might be more than the car is worth, but it's worth a hell of a lot more to me than the book value. Here's hoping for another 130k miles!  The older I get, the more I realise that people confuse wrinkles for wisdom

I have the same car. You needing new turbos at 130,000 miles makes me nervous when I my car has equivalent of nearly 175,000 miles. Any just like yours runs very nice.

Why replace the intercooler? Is is because of the cost of a clean?

thanks ______________________________
Vogue tdv8 08MY poverty pack - wow

j_rov wrote:

100% recommend getting the EGR's out and inspecting for missing parts. It should be obvious. For the cost of the gaskets, its an easy one to rule out and vital with your symptoms of jammed turbo blades.

You might be "lucky" to find a piece lodged in the turbo intake side.

rar110 wrote:

Why replace the intercooler? Is is because of the cost of a clean?

I suppose the answer is 'why not'?

Also replaced the air-con condenser at the same time!  The older I get, the more I realise that people confuse wrinkles for wisdom

Car now running like brand-new. Left hand turbo was siezed solid. Starts and runs exactly as it did when it was first out of the showroom.  The older I get, the more I realise that people confuse wrinkles for wisdom

Hi everyone,

I have just driven down to the Alps on a skiing holiday and about 20km shy of our destination we got the dreaded Engine System Fault issue and limp mode just after refuelling. The car hadn't missed a beat up to this point so off it went to a local garage who have dealt with many RR's via Greenflag thank god. They put the live data scanner on it and said it was an air sensor which was cleaned and fault cleared and road tested fine. They checked the intercooler hoses and no cracks so off we go from 750m up to 1600m altitude and me it comes back just after a short stop and always on an incline. Basically we drive 50m and even keeping revs below 1500 it's back. So back to garage and again they test and it drives fine at lower altitude. On way home we get down the mountain again and stop to clear system fault and the car drives back home 600 plus miles with no issues. Can anyone tell me what sensors beside the two MAF there are that can be replaced, diagrams or photo's would be nice and where are those other short pipes people are mentioning. My mate has suggested a smoke pellet in the air intake to detect any unseen leaks.

Any help would be really appreciated before I decide to bin it off for another make.

Thanks,

Adrian

Check for a hairline crack in the plastic air intake manifold on the right hand side. Use soapy water to find it.

If you have a crack the fix is either replace the manifold or glue it up... __
2018 L405 3.0 TDV6 Vogue SE Fuji White
2000 4.6 V8 HSE Oxford Blue
1994 3.9 V8 Vogue Ardennes Green - resto project

Land Rover History:
2010 3.6 TDV8 Autobiography Stornoway Grey
2001 Discovery 2 TD5 GS
1999 Discovery 2 V8i XS
1994 Discovery 300Tdi
1993 Discovery 200Tdi
1989 Range Rover Vogue SE 3.5EFi
1976 Series 3 2.25
1977 Range Rover 2 door 3.5 Carb