hi thanks for the info;

i have learnt yesterday that the garage that has the car in Le Mans, who i have paid 537euro to ship the car to land rover supposedly yesterday down say they cannot take it until end of week and as im some 300k away, cant do anything until it gets to LR;

just a comment on the air in fuel line symptom i have indicated;

when i first had a problem, i had come about 300km before it stopped first time, and after teh secondary pump was incorrectly changed by LR, i had gone 150/200 KM BEFORE the ongoing failures, so obviously the fault is not necesarily failing when AS the engine reaches temp, as it would be at temp pretty quickly into the journey;? also on the way to the first garage who just checked and changed the filter, this was 8 k from a cold standing start, at low speed below 40MPH and the car failed 2 times over that distance;

each of the previous 7 stops and the last 2 making 9 in total at that point, the car re started at the flick of the key, straight away, not even needing to wait for the pump to prime !! it was if someone had just turned of the tap, then opened it again;

following the filter change and then the garage letting the car idle for 2 hours when it stopped after about 2.5 hrs, we could see the bubbles suddenly appear in the plastic pipes by the filter, then it stopped, i hve no idea if they were before getting to the filter of after; but restarting was several attempts of cranking; to get it started with was not the same issue i had with my restarts; also after it went to LR and they changed the secondary pump; when i againg had 7 failures, this time i had to crank the engine several times ie crank several revolutions, stop another try, stop etc etc, so some was eith getting worse in its failure i dont really know

so the fact that it did fail after perhaps just 3 KM of its 8km short trip i mentioned, would indicate it had the issue when cold also !!!; dont know if that makes any change in line of thought but mention it anyway;

i will suggest to the LR garage when it gets there to do their diagnostic and also the injector test, and the relay test; and see what they report and then make my mind up whether to fill up and bring it backor let them proeed,? as i have said before, from previous expierience, in france they dont seem to be interested in tracing a fault, but more tend to say this and that need changing even if it doesent, as the change of secondary pump proves, which was clearly not the issue;

incidently, the dealer was adament that the problem was not the main pump as first suspected but the secondary, but i dont know why they came to that conclusion, as they will not say, but if they did see a low pressure problem in or around the secondary pump then it might well be leading to the relay/or tank pump vicinity ??? but perhaps just wishful thinking;

anyway i will see the result of the diagnostic and ask them to send me the error codes if any and let you know;

bob

You are right, sounds like fuel temperature is not a relevant factor.

If you are sure you have had the problem with more than half full tank then it is not the in-tank pump either. I ran mine with a dead in-tank pump on an 1100 km trip. No problems, just made sure tank never went too close to half full.

I just made a short drive with mine and can confirm that the in-tank pump does not run all the time. Had the RH/LH and total reading on the display while driving and also for a 10 minute stand still at idle with 41 liter LH and 33 l RH dead steady for the 10 minutes. So this confirms that low side pressure is provided by secondary pump.

LR garage can have measured fuel pressure on low side and thought it was in-tank before realizing it is the auxillary/secondary pump that delivers fuel through the filter to the high pressure pump. Embarazed to admit they screwed up ? Even LR specialists miss this detail. Could be why they changed their mind from in-tank at fault to secondary. Anyway LR shop is able both to read fuel pressure and manually trigger the fuel pumps with their diagnostic tool. Could still be the relay or even electric connector/wiring to pump.

Back to the air bubbles. Do you remeber if you saw them in the clear plastic tube coming out of the filter or only in the in the second section after the black t-junction ?

hi G62

with regard to the change of mind with LR about pumps, the first garage i went to was not a dealer, who did a basic diagnostic that revealed nothing, so they changed the filter to eliminate that; it is this garage that let the car idle for a couple off hours;etc; i dont recall which side of the Black tee they seee the bubbles ? he was holding the tube in his hand but just dont remember; all i know is in my absent they had been looking at the secondary pump as the cover was off and when the car stopped with the air bubbles in the tube, he was under the car doing something with it after the car stopped, while the other guy was holding the tube, an after a bit the pump primed and the bubbles went and started the car;

they kept the car and said they would put a new one on in the morning even though it had been changed 2 year before;

when i went back next day to collect it he advised he though now it was the main hp pump but i dont know why and further said it would be better to have LR do it as a code would have to be changed and only they can do it,

it went to LR and later in the day, they phoned to say they confirm it is the main pump hp and will do it in the morning. i then heard back later the next day and they said it was not the main but the secondary and that is what they ended up changing, but we now know it was not; i can really add anymore than that;

as for the fuel, i think i was around 300K ON THE WAY UP and had a full tank when i left, so im sure i would have had over half tank left , but would have been getting close i wold imagine, and on the way back, it was not full as i thought i had put enough to get back until the gps lady told me i did not have enough to complete the journey but im sure i had over half when it went again;

the in tank pump has not bee mentioned by either of the two garages as to the possible, only on the forum here; i also dont know if they have done a fuel tank reading both sides at LR but by the tie they got the car, the other garage had used a fair bit of fuel and was now under half; also the dealer it is going to now is not the one who changed the secondary pump, not that that is relevent

Hi Bob,

Ok, now I understand better. The first garage thought it was the main (high pressure side) fuel pump initially but changed their mind to secondary pump on the low pressure side. They probably diagnosed a intermittent faulty secondary pump. These pumps are known to run for a while after they start to fail if you give them a little "nudge". Failure after 2 years for a an aftermarket pump is not unheard of.

The next day they realized the problem persistet and they thought it then must be high pressure pump since they had already looked at the secondary. They then blew you of with the coding needed excuse, there is no coding required in swapping HP pump. Having said that it probably best they didn't, I doubt it is the HP pump.

The LR shop then interogated the HP pump and found it OK and switched attention to secondary on low pressure side.

Problem still persists


Just to backtrack.

There are 3 pumps involved in the fuel delivery on the TD6, 2 on the low pressure side and 1 on high side (the actual injection pump).

The in-tank pump is not the culprit as problem happens with more than half tank of fuel.

The secondary pump on the low pressure side was thought to be problem but this has been changed (assume you are 100% sure it has been done) and problem persists.

On the low pressure side this leaves fuel pump relay (green no 7 in the back), electric connector to pump and wiring to be checked. The fact that the pump started when one of the guys where fideling under the car could indicate a bad electrical connection. I assume he was under the left hand side a bit forward of the rear wheel ?

Both the air bubbles and the fuel flowing again when the guy fiddled around the secondary pump indicates this is where the problem is. If the pump is new my first bet is on the electrical connection to it; plug or wiring.

If it was not for the air bubbles I would suspect a faulty disel injector. LR shop can quickly check that out with their scanner.

So where do the bubbles in the fuel line come from?

hi again

well we almost have it with the first garage but not quite

the first garage which was not a dealer; initially just said they would change the filter in case clogged up and would then have a look around the system and do a diagnostic, but said it would not have the facility to read in depth;

they changed the filter while i was there and road tested had a look about and couldent find anything obvious then took it for a 10 k run, came back without any problems, and said to leave it with them rest of day and they would let it run and carry out a diagnostic; and check the pump etc; he looked on the computer and realised there was 2 and i pointed out the location of the secondary pump; but told him it had been replaced 2 year ago

i went back next day and they said the diagnostic showed no faults with the system, so perhaps it was the filter afterall; they also said they had had the car running for the last two hours without a problem so all was assumed ok; he was typing up the bill when another mechanic walked into the office and said the car had air bubbles coming up the tubes by the filter and suspected it was going to stop; we went down and while one was looking at the tubes, the other guy was under the car at the rear looking at the pump etc, he mentioned it was very noisy and expected it was at fault; a minute later the car stopped,

put the ignition back on and was waiting for the pump to prime, and eventually the fuel cams up the pipes and it started; i have no idea what he was doing if anything with the pump, but all i know is he said it should not be that noisy;

he then i guess assumed it was the pump at fault and said he would change it tomorrow;

i went back next day just before dinner and all he said was he done some checks ( have no idea what ), and that he now believed it was not the secondary pump but the main pump, i have no idea why he changed his mind but pointed out that although he could change the main pump, the car would still needed to go to the dealer for a code change, which he could not do, so he spoke to LR, explained the situation, and took to car to them on a transporter and left it with them, so he changed nothing other than the filter and left the whole job to LR; and at that point i was expecting them to change the main already having been warned of the cost !!


later that day, LR phoned and agreed it was a main pump problem and would change it next day; then end of next day they phoned again and said it was not a main pump problem afterall but the secondary lp pump which they changed, had tested the car and all was done, !!!

i have no idea what check they did but all i know is i asked them what they found to determine the change of mind, but i got no response but didnt really give it any more thought, just was glad to get the car back after being stuck for a week; paid the 420e bill, and off i went, until i came to half some 150/200 km down the road with the same fault;

the rest is history, but i have no doubt that the pump was changed, and i was charged for a diagnostic, so i assume they did have an error code to base there decision on ? as i said before , it is now awaiting delivery to another LR dealer this week but i wish i had driven it back now, even if it would have been a stop and go situation,

i will ask them to check the relay and the connections etc and just wait to see what their diagnostic displays,

sorry for all this long winded explanations, but its the only way i can make sure everyone undertands exactly what has happened,

bob

hi nicedayforit

i have no idea, im just going along with what is being said with the guys here, all i know is when the bubbles came up the line and the engine cut out, the guy under the car said the secondary pump was noisy and shouldent be ? but i dont know what he was doing with it at that point but eventually fuel came up the line and it started again !!!!

i will point this bubble bit out to LR when they get the car later this week before they run their tests

it will not be the same garage who changed the pump


bob

I hate to say this but it strikes me there is a leak somewhere on your fuel pipe work that is allowing air to be drawn into the system when the pumps are running but not letting fuel leak out. If you have the fuel tank sufficiently full so that it doesn't matter whether the in tank pump is working or not and bubbles of air can be produced at the secondary fuel pump position by fiddling with the pump it seems the problem is between the fuel tank pick up and the secondary pump. It could be the secondary pump letting air in through the pump body itself but given you have changed this twice it doesn't seem likely. If it was my car I would be concentrating on the condition of the fuel lines for now to totally eliminate any potential problem with them, at least that is a cheap option.

I hope they fitted new o rings when they changed the fuel filter. I had a similar problem on the Pug 407 diesel. I changed the filter with new o rings and the air leak was fixed.

I ageee. There is an air leak problem somewhere btw pump and fuel filter. Start at the filter and work back. ______________________________
Vogue tdv8 08MY poverty pack - wow

hi guys

well the car is as i say over 300 K away, waiting to go to the dealer, so all i can do is suggest things for them to check but you would like to think they would consider these idea's themselves !!

i will make sure they are aware of the air bubbles in the line, as it is an important point;

however, if i did have a leaking fuel line, that is only allowing air in and not fuel out, would i not have a constant problem, as when this all started, the car has been drivable some very long distances before it stopped ! ie over 150KM from the pump change to the first pull over !! on the way home for example

im sure they would have put new o rings on, well would like to think so anyway;

i will see what this second dealer comes up with, then decide whether to get it home and check things out by myself; i will keep you posted,

I still firmly believe it is the in-tank pump that is faulty and causing the problems. If the relay was faulty, it would just stop you from starting the vehicle (the relay controls both pumps as they are on the same electrical feed).

If the mechanic said the secondary pump was noisy, that points to air being drawn up from the swirl pot as the in-tank pump has slowed or stopped supplying fuel to it. Both pumps (in-tank and secondary) run constantly, the in-tank pump is constantly feeding fuel to the swirl pot at the top of the fuel sender unit, the syphoning action is only a secondary function of the fuel sender unit.
As I said in my previous posy, I took my fuel sender unit out of the tank and replaced the in-tank pump after exactly the same symptoms you've had. The cut-outs of the engine were totally random, it didn't matter how much fuel I had in the tank. In addition, what points more to it being the in-tank pump is that you get the dash display warning 'Fuel Inject System' come up, that only happens if the in-tank pump is failing, you won't get any dash warnings from the secondary pump failing.
There are other threads on this forum dealing with the in-tank pump, it would be a good idea to do a search and read up other threads on this.

Link to a thread on the in-tank pump:

http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic16152....ender+unit

Applies to both the Petrol and Diesel FFs.

hi discotigger

thanks for the info, it gives something more to think about, what is annoying is that if that is the only thing that triggers the fuel injection system message in the dash window, that LR dealer should have known about that, unless the other garage did not pass that info on ?? which is a posibility i guess,!!

i will have a word with the garage when they receive the car,

been looking n the search bar at in tank fuel pump posts, and i must say im tending to lean towards this as my problem !!! there are several posts that suggest that partial failure of the tank pump gives exact symptoms as mine ie air bubbles, in filter line, engine cut out, fuel injection system in dash readout etc, and as discotigger also suggests, so perhaps that is the issue,<?

i wonder if the dealer here has a way of testing it as it is intermitant fault ?

i feel a bit better that the cause is here, and being that the meh said the secondary pump was over noisy also points to the tank pump, so it is possably the answer;!!

i wonder what that would cost in france ? a few quid i imagine knowing parts prices over here !!! but its whether i risk driving it home 250K ; is it a gamble worth taking im thinking

Of the 3 air leaks into the fuel system I've had on 2 different vehicles, neither leaked fuel. One was the Pug 407 at the fuel filter. It would run then stop. The other 2 were in a Isuzu 110, 1 where the lift pump mounted on the motor had a small leak, and earlier an oring on the water separator had a small leak. It would run then stop. ______________________________
Vogue tdv8 08MY poverty pack - wow

If you keep the fuel tank over 3/4 full and run the vehicle gently, you should make it back home without too many dramas. When my in-tank pump started to fail, the engine cut-outs were fairly random and I had 1/2 tank of fuel in. Still managed to run 55 miles to get the car home, brimmed it with fuel and it ran okay till I got my replacement pump.

A replacement fuel sender unit (i.e. the whole in-tank unit) is around £285 from Island 4x4 here in the UK, but I got a replacement pump that fits inside the unit and it only cost me £36-95 from www.auto-sensors.co.uk, part number is fcefp878 (auto-sensors own part number) or look for 02SKV229. This is the in-tank diesel pump from a BMW 330D (same as for the 3.0 TD6 FF) and is a fraction of the cost. It is made in Germany by SKV and is an OE part.
It isn't a difficult job to get the fuel sender unit out of the FF, there's a youtube video that shows how to do it (it shows a V8 FF, but it's the same procedure for a TD6). As I said earlier, I did mine in a little over 2 hours and problem sorted.