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kimlahti

Member Since: 14 Oct 2015
Location: Oulu
Posts: 85

2008 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Alaska White

Finally got her in garage. Opened transmission pan and measured the LUC solenoid. It was OK. So I have cocked up my measurement earlier and I find that wiring diagram has error in transmission internal part. Took out the solenoid and it seems to work when powered. Still replaced it with the spare unit in hand. What else could be wrong? Valve block failure? New torque converter broken? -08 3.6 Vogue
-87 951

22nd Oct 2016 2:51pm

RRPhil

Member Since: 22 Aug 2011
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 982

In order of expense and hassle I would address your LUC issue in the following order:

1. EDS4 solenoid (or associated wiring)
2. Valve body assembly
3. Torque converter
4. Hydraulic leakage in transmission

It sounds as though you’ve already made a start on number 1.

Regarding a valve body fault you could certainly check that the WD-V & WK-V spools & springs in the lower front block are in good condition

Click image to enlarge

Vacuum testing can help identify worn bores

Click image to enlarge

but ultimately the only way to be 100% sure is to test the assembly properly on a Hydra-Test machine (or similar) where the pressure response to a given current input is measured and reported. I get all my valve bodies assemblies tested this way after I’ve rebuilt them.

For the torque converter itself, we have discussed many times on here how difficult this ‘captive clutch’ design is to re-manufacture because the lock-up clutch piston retainer is friction welded into position at the factory and the weld has to be released and, after the friction plate is replaced, then re-welded very accurately back into position because of the miniscule LUC piston movement (only 1mm in total, on to off).

Click image to enlarge

How confident are you that your converter was re-manufactured by someone who knew what they were doing?

Obviously option 4 is a last resort as a complete rebuild is required (but certainly the most fun)

Click image to enlarge

On early 5HP24 casings there were a large number of plugged tapping points from where you could externally measure just about all of the different element hydraulic pressures, including both the converter pressure (WKa) and the lock-up clutch pressure (WKz). ZF modified the castings over the years, progressively removing the majority of these tapping points including, unfortunately, the TC LUC pressure. The converter pressure tapping point remains (next to the cooler feed port on the LH side of the maincase)

Click image to enlarge

Another forum member, mattstevenson2005, is going through a similar process to yourself to determine which of the four options is causing his lock-up clutch issue and I was interested how big an effect Matt said an non-operational LUC had on his fuel consumption.

By the way, what is the error that you found with the wiring diagram in the workshop manual? – I haven’t noticed it.

Phil

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated

24th Oct 2016 1:44pm

kimlahti

Member Since: 14 Oct 2015
Location: Oulu
Posts: 85

Hello everybody,

There seem to be differences in 5hp24 wiring. Top loom is from my training valve body from 1995. Bottom one is naturally from 2002. In 95 version all purple solenoid supply wires are connected together and to pins 12 and 16. In 02 model SV1-3 and EDS 1&4 are connected to pin 16 and EDS2,3,5 to pin 12.

Wiring diagram shows EDS4 should be connected to pin12.

Click image to enlarge

What is wrong in this picture?

Yes. Control valve should pop out freely.

Looks like a piece of bearing shell to me. From where it could have entered there? Perhaps reason why the previous TC looked not so original. I guess it has been there since previous overhaul.

Phil, I am hoping that the new converter should be fine as I was told it was remanufactured by ZF.

-08 3.6 Vogue
-87 951

Last edited by kimlahti on 25th Oct 2016 6:38am. Edited 1 time in total

24th Oct 2016 8:27pm

doclees

Member Since: 24 Jun 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 672

You don't need to be RRPHIL to know that piece doesn't belong there.

25th Oct 2016 1:20am

kimlahti

Member Since: 14 Oct 2015
Location: Oulu
Posts: 85

When comparing 95 and 02 valve bodies 1058.427.022 I noticed quite a few changes. I guess it would unwise to mix those parts.

Click image to enlarge

-08 3.6 Vogue
-87 951

25th Oct 2016 5:19pm

RRPhil

Member Since: 22 Aug 2011
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 982

Yes, for sure, the only way that’s got in there (without going through the filter first) is from inside the torque converter.

You’re quite right regarding the wiring loom connections. The power supply pins (12 & 16) are separated on the later models. The connections for the Range Rover version of the transmission are:

Click image to enlarge

I’ve made up a simple breakout board just to make measurement easier:

Click image to enlarge

The first Range Rover 5HP24 transmission came off the production line at Saarbrucken in January 2001 and the ‘new hydraulics’ update was actioned by ZF in October 2001. The old valve body assembly (1058 127 328) was replaced with the new 1058 127 350 unit and you will see the ‘350’ number etched into the lower rear block.

Click image to enlarge

There were only around 500 Range Rover transmissions manufactured up to October 2001 so maybe ZF had time to retrofit them all as the L322 wasn’t officially launched until March 2002? Or maybe not, in which case there may be some very early L322’s knocking about with the old ‘328’ valve body assembly using ‘old hydraulics’. Jaguars and BMWs also used different valve body assemblies depending upon the torque capacity of the unit (and therefore the number of clutch plates used).

Phil

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated

28th Oct 2016 8:19am

kimlahti

Member Since: 14 Oct 2015
Location: Oulu
Posts: 85

I wonder where my spare valve body is originally from? Solenoid block has cast number 1055.427.105 and stamp 312. Year is 95 and EDS1 is green. It was taken from 1058 000 023. Clearly not original valve body.

-08 3.6 Vogue
-87 951

28th Oct 2016 6:40pm

doclees

Member Since: 24 Jun 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 672

RRPhill you are a master!

31st Oct 2016 4:04am

RRPhil

Member Since: 22 Aug 2011
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 982

kimlahti wrote:
I wonder where my spare valve body is originally from? Solenoid block has cast number 1055.427.105 and stamp 312. Year is 95 and EDS1 is green. It was taken from 1058 000 023. Clearly not original valve body.

Yes, something not quite right there. That looks like a 5HP30 valve body assembly to me (1055 127 312). The valve bodies fitted to the 5HP24 in the BMW/Alpina E38 730d (i.e. your 1058 000 023 transmission) were the same as the Range Rover ones.

Phil

31st Oct 2016 9:30am

kimlahti

Member Since: 14 Oct 2015
Location: Oulu
Posts: 85

It is very strange indeed. Bought it from eBay and seller told it was pulled out from 730d. Are 5hp30 and 5hp24 valve bodies interchangeable? Some parts seem to be at least. Main plate has number 1058 427 034.

-08 3.6 Vogue
-87 951

31st Oct 2016 10:01am

RRPhil

Member Since: 22 Aug 2011
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 982

Strange why somebody would do that. 1055 part numbers are 5HP30 and 1058 numbers are 5HP24. If your lower rear (solenoid) valve block from the ‘023’ transmission has a 1055 number cast into it then somebody, for whatever reason, has swapped this over from a 5HP30 at some point .

Some parts in the 5HP24 were carried over from the 5HP30 (for example the F-clutch/sprag assembly) but the valve bodies certainly weren’t one of them! All 24 models of the 5HP24 should have the number 1058 427 063 cast into the lower rear block.

Click image to enlarge

Phil

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated

31st Oct 2016 12:00pm

kimlahti

Member Since: 14 Oct 2015
Location: Oulu
Posts: 85

And all parts are from 1995 except solenoids probably. Couldn't find time stamp from those.

Click image to enlarge

Could this be some early prototype unit for 5hp24 reusing more 5hp30 parts than later ones?

-08 3.6 Vogue
-87 951

31st Oct 2016 12:17pm

RRPhil

Member Since: 22 Aug 2011
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 982

Yes, possible I suppose - the two valve blocks are certainly very similar. If the castings are marked with a ‘95’ production date, though, they definitely aren’t from a 730d transmission because the first ‘023’ unit rolled off the production line in March 1998 .

Phil

31st Oct 2016 2:18pm

kimlahti

Member Since: 14 Oct 2015
Location: Oulu
Posts: 85

After thorough cleaning everything is now back together and it actually works. Actually some valve bores felt like having small ridge from wearing. Specially LUC and main pressure valves. I took liberty of smoothening those a little bit with 2000 grade sanding paper and valves didn't feel sticky any more.

Below 90kmh it allows slip so that you can barely see RPM gauge needle move and above 90kmh it is locked solid. Haven't had longer journey yet to check difference in MPG. -08 3.6 Vogue
-87 951

4th Nov 2016 10:47am

kimlahti

Member Since: 14 Oct 2015
Location: Oulu
Posts: 85

1000km test run behind. 80kmh speed mpg was showing 12.0l/100km. In reality it is closer to 13l/100km.

On way back home traffic conditions were different and with heavier foot obc mpg reading was 13.5l/100km at the end. This fill up calculated 14.4l/100km. 90% highway and 10% city traffic.

Quite improvement compared to driving without tc lock.

With cold weather RR has developed a need to show trans failsafe mode at startup. P0709 was the code. Haven't had a change to check the connection to range switch yet. This goes away when started again and usually doesn't come back until RR is cold again.

And I broke my nav computer while fooling around with INPA.

It wanted to have SW updated and it failed to read correctly the update disk. Ordered new laser pickup for it if it could finish the upgrade with it. Otherwise it is probably time for mk4 nav unit.

-08 3.6 Vogue
-87 951

7th Dec 2016 8:38am

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