This costly accident in Holland has stirred up the discussion about towing and Rangies.... read the comments ....

http://www.prewarcar.com/magazine/previous...l#comments

Without knowing the facts 100% it's hard to pass comment. The Rolls could be rebuilt and probably will be.

But for sure, trailers like that need loading correctly, same weight on each axle, correct noseweight, secure tie downs (not those bunched straps in the video), a decent tow car with an experienced driver. And no, I don't really consider the P38 a decent towcar. Underneath it's basically a 100 inch Defender with all the steering vagueness, dreadful suspension and the drivetrain has more backlash than we saw with the poll tax in Scotland.

To be frank, the RR Classic was just as awful a towing machine. I had one with a 2 tonne boat behind (and mine was the LSE) and it was scary as hell to drive at anything over 30. The L322 is a vastly better machine for such activities. The Disco and the RR Sport (old one) are arguably better still due to the full chassis and extra weight.

Also, I'm not sure how heavy that Rolls is but with the weight of the trailer I'd bet strong money he was over 3500 kilos.

So, probably overweight, badly loaded, not securely strapped down, tow car and we know nothing of the driver's ability. Not the best recipe if we're honest.

What a terrible fate for the RR (both).

One can't say anything about the FFRR's towing ability without knowing a lot more about what happened.

The only thing that stands out to me is "brand new trailer". I've only ever pulled a trailer twice. Both times the loads were very light (appliances, fencing) and I still drove like I was pulling the Queen Mary and probably never got it (discovery) out of second gear. I knew I was no expert at this!. I'm guessing that a classic Rolls Royce, as well as being very expensive, is also very heavy. That's not what I'd like to practice with first time.

At least no one was seriously hurt.

mzplcg wrote:

I don't really consider the P38 a decent towcar. Underneath it's basically a 100 inch Defender with all the steering vagueness, dreadful suspension and the drivetrain has more backlash than we saw with the poll tax in Scotland.

Towed over 16000 miles with my P38, great tow car.

Ian

No they weren't, not for anything bigger than a camping trailer. Much as I love the Green Oval I don't look at them through rose tinted specs.

The RR of pre-BMW design days were lousy towing machines. Strong pulling but steering like a hovercraft, suspension roll like a barge on the high sea and all based on pig iron live axles, hockey stick control arms, bloody tractors basically. Fine at 20mph and increasingly unstable the faster you were going. I sold my P38 and bought an Isuzu Trooper LWB to tow our boat and boy, what a quantum leap of an improvement from a handling perspective. Much more relaxed driving, just a bit van-like inside.

Put it this way, towing that rig with the heavy old Rolls on it I would want a Landcruiser, Nissan Patrol or a Trooper rather than a RR Classic, P38, Defender, or D1 & D2. LR became great towing machines with the arrival of L322 and Discovery 3, nothing before those was relaxing to drive when towing, in fact it was hard work.

Something else which can be a factor and is something I've been saying for years is the European specification of overrun brakes on trailers. Fine in a straight line but less and less effective in corners (think about the angle of the towball relative to the plane in which the vehicle is stopping). The USA and notably Australia insist on electric brakes which are applied via a control box on the car's brake pedal. So in a snake situation the trailer brakes can be applied to pull the rig straight again. I know ALKO and Winterhoff have their anti-snake systems now but it's only papering over the cracks. Linked brakes with efficiency levels mathing the towcar (i.e. discs, not drums) should be mandatory now on all trailers over 750kg, not the half-baked overrun drum systems we are forced to live with.

p38arover wrote:

I had a P38A for 13 years and never experienced this drive train backlash to which you refer. Was yours a manual?

Agreed that it would be good to have better trailer braking systems in the UK. Our trailer is used only occasionally and the drums can get a bit sticky, especially when left for a while with road salt on it.

Having towed with a 3.9 Classic, 4.6 P38, 4.4 petrol 322 and 4.4 TDV8 322 I'd say things have definitely got better as I have progressed. The extra size, weight and torque all help. I remember having to pull away in low ratio in the Classic with a double axle trailer full of logs which was also wider than the car, much less effort now. Maybe lower profile tyres help stability too, though I don't like them much for other reasons - I think an Australian Toyota LC 200 test found a heavily laden car on 17" wheels would start weaving when the same car on 20" wheels would not.

Looking at the Rolls Royce towing thread, it does look as if the trailer and load might have been above the 3,500 limit and also well above the weight of the P38 towing them, not ideal. I was interested to see that the P38 brochure mentions a 1000 kg limit for off road towing, I have not seen that with the 322, consistent with the P38 being less good. I could not find a train weight limit for the P38, but looking at the 322 figures it would not be surprising if the train here was too heavy. It's a sad loss, though at least no-one was hurt.

I see that the SV 405 with 550bhp has a lower (3000kg) limit - as also the 405 hybrid. I wonder why (not that I plan to buy either of them). Only Range Rovers since 1988

Towed a Mini on a full size car trailer, from Medway to Peterborough, with a 4.6 Auto P38 and didn't even notice it was there.

That makes it a pretty good tow car to me. 2017 5.0 Autobiography Supercharged
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Well a Mini weighs the square root of nowt but even an empty trailer is definitely noticeable. But for what we're discussing here, i.e. a fairly hefty Rolls Royce, the P38 is not a good choice of tug. In truth it should have been on some kind of beavertail or flat bed truck but if it had to go on a trailer there are vastly superior tow cars out there, ones which aren't just an evolution of a 1948 design and put together with all the build quality of a corn flakes packet.

Just because "it can" on paper doesn't mean "You should". It's about using the right tool for the job and TBH the only job the P38 was ever any good at was emptying a man's wallet.

CS wrote:

I was interested to see that the P38 brochure mentions a 1000 kg limit for off road towing, I have not seen that with the 322, consistent with the P38 being less good.

Page 244 Owner's Manual states offroad towing with braked trailer not to exceed 1000Kg.  John
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Thanks Weegie, I'll look that up. I suppose "offload" covers a multitude of situations, there must be no end of RRs towing horse boxes over fields breaching that limit, even our trailer when fully loaded must be over that, also the big offload caravans used in Australia. There will be a LR liability limitation aspect to it.

mzplcg, I must confess I have fond memories of my P38, the most comfortable car I have had, plus I thought better handling than the 4.4 petrol that replaced it, and in my time hardly anything went wrong with it: in those days I thought the stories of unreliable RRs were just people not looking after them properly...  Only Range Rovers since 1988

Must admit that we had a P38 for 10 years or so and it was a great car, though never towed with it, although have towed a 16' caravan with a RR classic 3.9 together with 2 adult Rottweilers and a Tibetan Mastiff in the back of the car to a number of Championship Dog Shows all over the country and never had any issues with it.

Looking at the video if he has taken down a tree / telegraph pole with the front of the Range Rover (hence the V shape in the bonnet and front bumper, he's being doing way more than 30mph to do that amount of damage, or fallen asleep at the wheel.

CS wrote:

I suppose "offload" covers a multitude of situations,

An apposite typo in view of the reason for the thread.  John
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GAP iiD BT
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MasseyFerguson 152 - No electronics!! - Sold

too much weight too fast.

its all well and good saying that these things will tow 3500kg, but realistically towing anything over 100% of the cars kerb weight is a bit daft, unless some sort of trailer stability system is fitted.

I have in the past had our 2700kg digger on the back of the disco, as well as 2700kg in aggregate in out flatbed indespension, and yes you CAN tell its there. towing anything more than that would be downright stupid. At 50 on the M1 it was stable enough in a straight line but you could feel it pushing at the rear of the car in bends, and that is on what is classed as one of the best tow cars out there.

As said just because it can doesn't mean it should. The L322 is a great tow car in its own way, it will handle a caravan perfectly with minimum disruption as they way next to nothing, even my 26' 1900kg Lunar is relatively light in comparison to a fully loaded trailer.

Having towed 3.5 tonnes on the back of both an L322 and a D4 on twisty roads from the quarry there really isn't much difference between the two cars stability wise, I have had that much on the back of a land cruiser colorado in the past and it was downright dangerous....... never again and I only went 2 miles...... the defender doesn't weigh much more than the LC and putting that much weight on something based on the same architecture/rough weight would scare the bejesus out of me the classic doesn't weight much over 2 tonnes so almost 3/4 tonne less than the FF or D4. Tail wagging the dog... There is nothing that can't be fixed with a hammer😜😜
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Wow - thanks for that NMJ - so you consider me to be both "daft" and "stupid"

But ... while I'm being "daft" can I point out that as an experienced "tower" you'll be aware that towing 2.7te of aggregate (including trailer that'll be at least 3.2te) is not one of the best examples as very few will ensure correct towbar height or nose weight AFTER they've been loaded!!!

My "stupid" -ness encourages me to tow a fully loaded 3.5te horse trailer many thousands of miles in the last year plus a 3.5te 14ft tri-axle Ifor even more thousands of miles in the same timescale - - - all behind a 90 HT and not one single worrying or concerning moment (other than that ruddy ns mudflap!!).

Chunter over!!  Back in a Defender!!