I’ve a D350 being delivered in early Jan and am going to spec another RR for delivery in 2 years. I am considering a PHEV but finding it difficult to understand the real world figures. I mainly do long journeys in my RR.

I’ve compared the P440e PHEV and the D350 MHEV, here are some of the significant (for me) differences and a few questions. Does anyone have the answers?

Firstly the P440e is around 300kg heavier and has 620Nm of torque versus 700NM for the D350. It’s not stated whether this torque figure is combined, electric only or petrol only.

The P400 MHEV has 400Nm of torque. Does P440e on petrol only have a similar torque figure?

The combined mpg for the P440e means nothing in reality (353 mpg). What is the mpg figure for a long journey? As a comparison the P400 combined mpg is around 20% less than the D350.

I’m sure on electric only the P440e has plenty of torque and reasonable mpg equivalent. But what are the figures when running on petrol?

https://www.landrover.co.uk/Images/Range-Rover-WLT... MY23 D350 HSE
On my 7th RR plus various other JLR vehicles

If you do a lot of high mile journeys, a diesel is still the most economical over a PHEV

Phil. wrote:

I’m sure on electric only the P440e has plenty of torque and reasonable mpg equivalent. But what are the figures when running on petrol?

Thanks for the replies.

Having never owned one I'm attempting to understand what benefits if any a PHEV has over a a MHEV diesel/petrol other than for short journeys and with the cost of electric now even that benefit is becoming marginal. Obviously there are tax advantages if bought through a company at the moment.

As for a pure electric FFRR, its either going to have a limited range or be very heavy. Not for me, as I need to be able to drive across the continent occasionally. I can't even justify the high cost of an electric run around compared to the great MHEV petrol alternatives at nearly half the cost. MY23 D350 HSE
On my 7th RR plus various other JLR vehicles

I think the PHEV will give you the best of both worlds Phil. Silent driving around town and on short local journeys, with the benefit of a petrol engine for back up and greater flexibility.

Also, when exactly will this electric infrastructure be in place to cope with what is scheduled to be a massively increasing demand, I doubt it ever will be.

I actually think it'll be the 100% electric cars that won't survive in the main. Of course, they'll have their place for those who just do local trips, but they won't be a car for all purposes.

I've just got back from an 1,800 mile return trip to SW France, and on a couple of occasions we saw overhead signs stating "no charging points at next services"....... No thanks, this is not for me. How on earth are you supposed to confidently plan your journey. I want the journey to be a pleasure, not one packed with uncertainty. At least with the PHEV you're not completely reliant on one power source.

I also recently noticed an ad, can't remember if it was for car insurance or a recovery company (AA / RAC), but they're now offering recovery cover for if your cars electric batteries run out of power - I think that tells you all you need to know!

Finally, if I have to stop every 200 miles or so to get a coffee and pain au chocolate while I'm waiting for the car to charge, I'll end up the size of a house!!

Phil,

If you mean what are the economic benefits then it depends how you use it:

1) If its a business purchase then there's the tax relief
2) If the majority of journeys are less than 50 miles round trip then at 10p/Kwh x 33Kw usable battery you are paying £3.30 to travel 50 miles or 6.6p/mile. If we allow 35MPG for a diesel its around 20p/mile @ £1.50 a litre
3) On longer journeys if you start with a full charge the battery will work with the engine to deliver higher mpg than if it was just petrol, and there is some regen on deceleration. I don't know how much yet as my P440e has not yet been delivered but I have seen 40mpg claimed so i guess there would be some savings there too.

For me, my daily commute is 40 miles and if I can do that on full EV then I can do it in comfort with a reasonably clear conscience and save on fuel costs too as I can charge every night if needed at home. For the 20 or so longer journeys I do per year I expect it to be marginally cheaper than a Diesel to run. I was surprised at the relatively low premium on the PHEV models ad this tipped the balance in its favour for me. I am coming off a full EV (iPACE) which has been great but the range is not quite enough for my longer journeys and although the charging network is rapidly improving if only takes a few cold wet and dark attempts to get a delinquent motorway charger to work before you wonder if you did the right thing.

It is hard to make a case for the PHEV if you mainly do longer journeys as most of the time you may be lugging empty batteries around or charging them at 70p/Kwh at motorway services. So you really need to think about how you use the vehicle to work this one out.

If the tax benefits are something that’s weighing strongly on your decision, I wouldn’t bet on them still being around in 2 years.

aja500 wrote:

I actually think it'll be the 100% electric cars that won't survive in the main.

I get what you're saying, and as a use case phev's satisfy a lot of needs at the moment. I just think that in electric mode you have a pretty small electric motor, so you're reliant on the petrol motor for umph and there's not a lot of regen. They are hugely complex compared to a full electric and more complex than an ICE as they have both systems. It probably won't matter to you guys who buy them new, but when it's 10 years old some people will think that's a whole lot of potential expense they won't want to get exposed to.

Having said that, there are a lot of elderly Prius's on the road, but then they're Toyota's.

PHEV's will die out as all ICE's are getting banned from sale in the 2030's. By then charging won't be an issue as there will be fast chargers everywhere.

Incidentally, when I read the initial press reviews of the L460 the journalists asked the LR engineers what was their favourite power train and the response was the full electric. I think it will suit the RR.

Thanks for all the detailed responses.

The conclusion I've come to is that the only reason to choose the PHEV over the MHEV is cost saving, largely if acquired through a company. Any saving running on electric is marginal compared to RR depreciation historically, and the cost of electric is only going on one direction.

The PHEV is a compromise between a MHEV and full electric. I'm yet to be convinced by the cost-benefit of owning any electric vehicle.

The D350 MHEV is reported to suit the new RR well with decent economy and acceleration when required. Having driven one I agree.

I think I'll stick with the D350 for my next RR order in the NY. MY23 D350 HSE
On my 7th RR plus various other JLR vehicles

It’s the L405, but my P400e is outstanding with a punch of low down torque starting at zero rpm. You’re never ‘petrol only’ there is always battery for bursts of acceleration. The P510e has the same torque at a D350 but for a much wider rev range, it must really fly.

After 12,000 miles I have averaged 30 mpg so it’s more thirsty than a diesel would be, but periods of electric-only running, a superb stop/start experience, cheaper fuel (petrol) and not faffing with ad blue etc, I would not own a diesel again. Higher mileage, like you, then maybe I would consider it, but I can’t say I buy Range Rovers for their fuel economy! But for the record the L405 PHEV is a real gem in my opinion so I presume the L460 ones are likewise.

Very jealous of you L460 owners. Enjoy that 4 wheel steering on my behalf! (And I’ll enjoy my Signature hifi that most of you can’t spec anymore…. ) L405 P400e Autobiography (MY2020)... Silicon Silver / Espresso

KurtVerbose wrote:

PHEV's will die out as all ICE's are getting banned from sale in the 2030's. By then charging won't be an issue as there will be fast chargers everywhere.

Incidentally, when I read the initial press reviews of the L460 the journalists asked the LR engineers what was their favourite power train and the response was the full electric. I think it will suit the RR.

I agree. I saw that article too and although it’s by the DM, there was significant additional reporting by individuals to suggest it’s reasonably accurate. MY23 D350 HSE
On my 7th RR plus various other JLR vehicles

Yet in Norway sales of ICE's have almost died out. A cold, vast country that now has a good charging infrastructure people are happy to rely on.

Sorry, I can't bring myself to read the daily mail. It's just there for celebrity gossip, not news and certainly not facts.

As mentioned by myself and Phil, this was widely reported in several areas of the media, so nothing to do with celebrities.

As for Norway, a population of what, circa 5 million, the UK 67 million.

Passenger cars in Norway, 2.8 million, the UK, 32 million, it's hardly comparable.

Attempting to draw a comparison between the two, actually makes you look a bit "Daily Mail"

I'm only pulling your leg Kurt

I suspect there is a good chance electric cars will work in Norway, and that's a great thing for your country. However, the UK by comparison is cramped and over populated with almost fifteen times as many cars as Norway (or 30 million more!), so you're not exactly comparing apples with apples.

I love the serenity associated with electric cars and I've actually paid a huge premium for near silent ICE cars in the past, in order to achieve the quietest possible experience, so I'm all for electric cars in that respect. If the infrastructure was there and a 400 mile range possible, I'd be front of the queue.

I guess only time will tell for certain how things work out here in the UK, and I sincerely hope you prove me wrong.

That would have to be a 400 mile range in winter before I’d buy an EV for anything other than local journeys, which would be difficult to rationalise as there are good mild-hybrid’s available for half the cost of a runabout EV.

The whole EV things seems to have been sold to the masses based on net zero, whatever that is, whilst the big consumers of energy (China/India) are doing the opposite and building more coal-fired power stations. It’s all a bizarre situation. Or may be I’m getting old  MY23 D350 HSE
On my 7th RR plus various other JLR vehicles