We normally see chemical energy shown as joules, or mega joules, and electrical energy as kilowatt hours, so we don't directly compare the efficiency of petrol/diesel vehicles in the same terms as EV's.

But you can convert joules to kwh easily. A litre of diesel has about 10 kwh, and a litre of petrol has about 8.75. By the gallon diesel has 45.4609 kwh and petrol 39.7782875. Multiply those numbers by your miles per kwh and you have the MPG of your EV.

Incidentally, a Tesla Model 3 does a quoted 4.4 miles per kwh, which is 200 mpg for diesel and 175 mpg for petrol. Something more Range Rover sized like BMW's iX goes 2.9 miles per kwh, which is 131 mpg for diesel and 115 mpg for petrol.

Anyway, just thought it was an interesting metric, nothing more.

My i3 averages 5.2 miles per kWh so 236.40 and 206.85 mpg and the RAC are stating that EV's cost more to run the the equivalent petrol or diesel car.

I often do a similar comparison by comparing pence per mile. I pay 7.5p kWh therefore my cost per mile is 1.44p. Average cost of diesel in uk is £1.82 per litre - £8.26 per gallon. That works out on a cost basis a much more impressive 573 mpg  BMW i3 Electric Car
2012 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8 (now gone)
2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi V6

KurtVerbose wrote:

We normally see chemical energy shown as joules, or mega joules, and electrical energy as kilowatt hours, so we don't directly compare the efficiency of petrol/diesel vehicles in the same terms as EV's.

But you can convert joules to kwh easily. A litre of diesel has about 10 kwh, and a litre of petrol has about 8.75. By the gallon diesel has 45.4609 kwh and petrol 39.7782875. Multiply those numbers by your miles per kwh and you have the MPG of your EV.

Incidentally, a Tesla Model 3 does a quoted 4.4 miles per kwh, which is 200 mpg for diesel and 175 mpg for petrol. Something more Range Rover sized like BMW's iX goes 2.9 miles per kwh, which is 131 mpg for diesel and 115 mpg for petrol.

Anyway, just thought it was an interesting metric, nothing more.

Like all vehicles, the mpg is highly dependent on how you drive. You *could* get 4.4 miles per kWh in a Tesla Model 3, but not if you drive it at motorway speeds, using a/c etc. Most EVs have a relatively high performance, so the temptation is to use that performance at the expense of economy. Therefore, I repeat, you *could* get 4.4 mpkWh, but you *won’t*.

I’ve just driven from Cheshire to Newcastle and back in my I-Pace, taking it easy on the way up (2.4 miles per kWh), and not so much on the way back (2.2 miles per kWh). I could have got into the mid 3s if I’d limited my speed to 40mph, and into the 4s if I’d switched of the a/c and driven at 30mph. (But then I wouldn’t be writing this because I’d still be driving)

Taking my average of 2.3 mpkWh for this journey, that’s still 90 - 100 mpg, which isn’t bad for a 400bhp car.  Gone D3
Gone FFRR L322
Gone FFRR L405
Now on the JLR electric highway ....

The same is true of petrol and diesel cars. Who gets near the quoted figures?

The trouble with all of these sort of cost comparisons is they don't take into account the fixed costs of financing an electric vehicle in the first place, which tend to cost, like for like, rather more than their petrol/diesel equivalents. Obviously the more miles you do, then the less this impacts on cost per mile, but it's a factor nevertheless. but then servicing costs as lower (or should be) and nobody seems to have costed in the eventual disposal cost of the nasties in the batteries, where does it end? Drives:
2010 FFRR TdV8 Vogue - Stornoway Grey
2010 FFRR TdV8 Vogue SE - Zermatt Silver
1998 BMW E36 M3 GTII

It a lot of cases, the batteries apparently go on to have second lives as power wall batteries or similar.

rvbush wrote:

The trouble with all of these sort of cost comparisons is they don't take into account the fixed costs of financing an electric vehicle in the first place, which tend to cost, like for like, rather more than their petrol/diesel equivalents. Obviously the more miles you do, then the less this impacts on cost per mile, but it's a factor nevertheless. but then servicing costs as lower (or should be) and nobody seems to have costed in the eventual disposal cost of the nasties in the batteries, where does it end?

rvbush wrote:

The trouble with all of these sort of cost comparisons is they don't take into account the fixed costs of financing an electric vehicle in the first place, which tend to cost, like for like, rather more than their petrol/diesel equivalents. Obviously the more miles you do, then the less this impacts on cost per mile, but it's a factor nevertheless. but then servicing costs as lower (or should be) and nobody seems to have costed in the eventual disposal cost of the nasties in the batteries, where does it end?

I'm not anti EV per-se, but there are a lot of things that don't get costed properly in order to support the Government agenda of forcing us down the wrong path. EV's for city use, absolutely! But banning ICE vehicles completely, why? Surely with modern tech you could limit ICE vehicles in certain areas to so many 'visits' per year or something like that. Technology will solve the pollution problem, but politicians with no knowledge of the issue just a desire to get votes, won't! They are just leading us up the wrong garden path. Drives:
2010 FFRR TdV8 Vogue - Stornoway Grey
2010 FFRR TdV8 Vogue SE - Zermatt Silver
1998 BMW E36 M3 GTII

[quote="SamThomas"]

rvbush wrote:

The trouble with all of these sort of cost comparisons is they don't take into account the fixed costs of financing an electric vehicle in the first place, which tend to cost, like for like, rather more than their petrol/diesel equivalents.

Quote:

Obviously the more miles you do, then the less this impacts on cost per mile, but it's a factor nevertheless. but then servicing costs as lower (or should be)

Quote:

and nobody seems to have costed in the eventual disposal cost of the nasties in the batteries

Quote:

where does it end?

Quote:

Don't forget the costs of installing chargers to factor in.

Quote:

As for second owner value ? probably quite high, but when EV's are out of the dealer network (because of the costs) what will the value be ?

Quote:

Very little I suspect, they will be out of the scope of local garages because of the costs of the software required & that's assuming the manufactures will provide it.

Quote:

There will of course be some indy's who will invest & probably specialise in makes but there will be a lot of incompetents out there too.

I think it’s too early to have a firm view on residuals of EVs, especially as the development is moving fairly quickly.

Comparing residuals on an old RR when the market was poor (or normal) to a little city car when the market is crazy is just daft!

I’ve had my car nearly 2.5 years, have added over 30k miles to it and it’s worth £8-9k less than I paid for it. On that basis, a FFRR is the cheapest cars I’ve had in a long, long time…..that’s just luck / timing.

A quick look on the Jaguar configurator for a fairer comparison puts an IPace about £200 a month more than a D300 F Pace, based on £10k down / 10k miles a year. You’d have to have zero cost electricity and save a bit on servicing to break even. MY23 Panamera E-Hybrid
MY19 SDV8 Autobiography - Sold

[quote="AJGalaxy2012"]

SamThomas wrote:

rvbush wrote:

The trouble with all of these sort of cost comparisons is they don't take into account the fixed costs of financing an electric vehicle in the first place, which tend to cost, like for like, rather more than their petrol/diesel equivalents.

But if theyre comparing either put cost of financing on both sides of the comparison or leave it off both sides.

Quote:

Obviously the more miles you do, then the less this impacts on cost per mile, but it's a factor nevertheless. but then servicing costs as lower (or should be)

That pans out, £525 one off payment for 3 years servicing & MOT's direct with BMW.

Quote:

and nobody seems to have costed in the eventual disposal cost of the nasties in the batteries

Theres a good reason for that, the disposal of the EV battery nasties only exists in ICE drivers heads. The traction batteries have a second life in home energy storage and then the component parts can be recycled.

Quote:

where does it end?

It will only ever end with education of the masses that simply repeat hearsay and continue to spread the myths.

Quote:

Don't forget the costs of installing chargers to factor in.

Most EV's come supplied with a charger.

Quote:

As for second owner value ? probably quite high, but when EV's are out of the dealer network (because of the costs) what will the value be ?

Not so, they hold their price well, my i3 is worth more now than when I bought it 3 years ago, my FFRR only attracted half the price when I sold it after 18 months.

Quote:

Very little I suspect, they will be out of the scope of local garages because of the costs of the software required & that's assuming the manufactures will provide it.

Does this not ring true for any vehicle? do Land Rover make their software readily available? Arent many jobs out of scope for local garages?
The truth is with EV's there are more and more garages doing the required training, the systems and fault finding whilst be different are much simpler.

Quote:

There will of course be some indy's who will invest & probably specialise in makes but there will be a lot of incompetents out there too.

Again, no different to ICE car garages.

The BIGGEST EV SCAM in HISTORY! Porsche are removing functions from YOUR Electric Car. SHAME ON YOU!

Just watched this on the Tube of You...

I think the real deal is starting to appear way before they intended it to...

This guy had functions that came with the car removed/deleted/exterminated on a tech upgrade and was asked to pay extra to have them added again...

Fun EVs heh?!?

AJGalaxy2012 wrote:

My i3 averages 5.2 miles per kWh so 236.40 and 206.85 mpg and the RAC are stating that EV's cost more to run the the equivalent petrol or diesel car.

I often do a similar comparison by comparing pence per mile. I pay 7.5p kWh therefore my cost per mile is 1.44p. Average cost of diesel in uk is £1.82 per litre - £8.26 per gallon. That works out on a cost basis a much more impressive 573 mpg

We’ve been here before….quite recently….it’s 7.5p for you for now and if I remember correctly, that’s because you’ve invested a lot in solar/batteries to get down to that cost along with a mileage that means 4 hours a day is enough. Most people I know with EVs at work are struggling to get to 10p a mile and that’s those with a cheap overnight rate plus they’re not taking into account the extra they’re paying for the other 20 hours a day. The higher cost per mile is because they’re traveling a fair distance most days (in a larger EV), but that’s why you can’t use your own situation and assume someone else will be the same.

I have some empathy as I under-recover for my business miles, but no sympathy as they are paying all company car tax and it’s their choice and running an EV as a company car is still cheap motoring. MY23 Panamera E-Hybrid
MY19 SDV8 Autobiography - Sold

SamThomas wrote:

I'm aware that manufactures keep their software close to their chests - my view is that they will keep EV software even closer, especially with software updates.

AFAIK there are no garages in my area investing in equipment to service EV's.

Looking at the HEVRA map, south East doesnt look too shabby:


 BMW i3 Electric Car
2012 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8 (now gone)
2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi V6