WOW! Straight from Fox News. So everyone else is a pendant, and nobody but sam thought this through

EVs are not the solution. Far from it, they are set to become an even bigger problem than fossil-fuelled cars.

The cost (both economic and environmental) of sourcing materials for the batteries and then recycling them when they reach end-of-life is enormous and seems to be routinely ignored by the EVangelists.

As for solving the problem of how people in high-rise accommodation are supposed to charge their EVs, no practical solution has yet been proposed. Similar issues exist for those in terraced houses.

Those in isolated rural houses have the problem of inadequate cabling and insufficient supply from the local substation.

Then there's the issue of situations such as those experienced in the northeast recently after Storm Arwen when thousands of people were left with no power for several days. "Sorry, can't get to work, the car's flat". Terrific.

The push towards EVs is a political bandwagon that really hasn't been thought through properly and any future issues are swept aside by political rhetoric.

My opinion, feel free to disagree.

Dunc. The life you have is the only one you'll get; make the most of it.
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2012 4.4 TDV8 L322 Autobiography
2003 TD5 Oslo Blue D2 ES Premium Auto (with mods!)

I do agree with some of what you say, however it’s not black or white. Somewhat greyish is more the situation.

It’s generally agreed that we can’t keep burning fossil fuels at the rates which we are. It’s not good for the planet blah blah blah….. but there is truth in that.

Petrol and diesel cars are getting axed soon, maybe not 2030, but soon ish….. so there needs to be an alternative, hydrogen is not currently a viable option, though research is pressing on, once we have figured out how to extract hydrogen efficiently and in a large quantity then it will be a reasonable option. But for now it’s not.

2025 and 2030 aren’t cliff edges, boilers will be banned but there will still be existing boilers in place, these will run for years into the future, no one is suggesting that on 31Dec 2024 your trusty old Baxi gets skipped, and a 10k ashp gets fitted…… over the coming years the plan is to start blending natural gas with higher and higher percentages of Hydrogen. New boilers are already starting to be adapted so they can easily be switched to burning hydrogen. The network is in place, you can have hydrogen piped to your house…… so that is part of the plan.

As for electric cars, yes currently we require cobalt and other rare earth metals to make batteries, but manufacturers are already moving away from those, slowly, but they are. Also investment is taking place into what to do with spent batteries from old EVs. Using them as energy storage is one idea. Taking old car batteries and Combining them into larger batteries which will be used to smooth power delivery at peak periods. Doesn’t address all the issues I know, but just because we can’t do it now doesn’t mean we won’t figure it all out over the coming years.

I’m not an eco person and I don’t subscribe to tree hugging. But I do like the tech involved in electric cars. Is the grid ready.

Possibly not, but I remember watching this last year and I’m sure it been posted before but it’s interesting and worth a few mins:

 There is nothing that can't be fixed with a hammer😜😜
FFRR 4.4 SDV8 Autobiography Santorini Black.
Fiat 500x 1.4 multiair Lounge 2015
2010 LR D4 Commercial 2.7 TDV6

What pressure is the hydrogen proposed to come into homes?, and how easy would it be to pressurise it for a fuel cell on a vehicle? I.e. could we find a way to have a filling station system at home?

I’m with Dunc (there’s a t-shirt in the making!) but very interested in hydrogen options for vehicles be it fuel cell or internal combustion engines adapted for hydrogen

I would imagine that if they were to start piping Hydrogen to homes, it would be at the same or similar pressure to gas.

Which would mean the usable post regulator pressure would be 30mBar ish. So not enough to directly fill a hydrogen tank, like you can’t fill your car with Natrual gas…. The L in LPG is the key. liquified. No way in hell that the gas grid could cope with piping liquid Hydrogen.

But invention might create a compact liquification plant. Who knows. Pipe gaseous hydrogen to homes, then compress and store. There is nothing that can't be fixed with a hammer😜😜
FFRR 4.4 SDV8 Autobiography Santorini Black.
Fiat 500x 1.4 multiair Lounge 2015
2010 LR D4 Commercial 2.7 TDV6

Bl4ckD0g wrote:

WOW! Straight from Fox News. So everyone else is a pendant, and nobody but sam thought this through

A lot of thought from Dunc & NMJ, all relevant to the subject, most of which I agree with. So there certainly is a lot of thought about.

As for powering vehicles from the gas/hydrogen grid that's quite possible possible using a compressor in the same way as some trucks were running on CNG (compressed natural gas). AFAIR The Body Shop used to run their trucks using this method.

+1 for RRDunc, particularly regarding Charging infrastructure, I've had PHEV & EV company cars since 2018 as I can't resist a Gov BIK incentive/bribe and I can only see the public charging infrastructure going backwards. Yes there are more chargers but there are a lot more cars trying to use them so availability of vacant (and working) chargers is getting worse.
EVs do have a use but until there is a better way to "refill" they aren't much use to a lot of us, why not swap a battery for a fully charged one?, it's worked on FLTs for decades and you can change a battery as quickly as you can fill the tank on a RR.
I can't really see an obvious alternative to EVs, as I understand it Hydrogen has such a low calorific value and needs to be stored at such a high pressure that you'd need to be towing a tanker made of steel several inches thick to enable any sort of range at all?

That’s not strictly true, the Mirae has 400-600 miles range depending on driving style, and tanks are carbon fibre with a plastic outer (all crash tested). They are reputedly working on the 1000 mile range variant at the moment, as well as the Corolla internal combustion engine running on hydrogen that they are testing in 24hr endurance races in Japan.

I do think electrical vehicles have a place. What I find intriguing is that China and Germany are now investing heavily in hydrogen as is Japan. When I take a holistic view (as I have to for work on auto designs direction) it’s clear hydrogen is coming for commercial vehicles, trains, buses as well as agricultural and yellow goods vehicles. The hydrogen engine sizes specified by Cummins align to American pick ups (6.75ltr V8 from memory). So the question is will it cross over into more mainstream vehicles? The network will have to be there for the above sectors, if (and it is an IF) ranges of 1000miles are achieved then the infrastructure doesn’t need to be as big, and can tap into the green renewables sector by utilising electricity generated at night and then storing the fuel for use.

SamThomas wrote:

Bl4ckD0g wrote:

WOW! Straight from Fox News. So everyone else is a pendant, and nobody but sam thought this through

I was referring to my statement (before I edited) it.

I stand by my other view that there has not been enough thought into the whole situation.

Not enough thought….

There are whole departments in DNOs giving this thought.

There are entire industries looking at end of life battery use / recycling.

There is millions going into researching a hydrogen infrastructure.

Because you are ignorant of these efforts does not entitle you to accuse the world of innovation of not thinking these things through.  Gone D3
Gone FFRR L322
Gone FFRR L405
Now on the JLR electric highway ....

If I could blow a referees whistle I would! (Stan as moderator probably has one).

Petrol and diesel is on its way out as a mainstream fuel over the next 15-20yrs, but you can get synthetic fuels for classics and also ethanol free fuel but it’s not cheap £3/Ltr is referenced on Harry’s garage.

Electric cars are a short term easy answer to get CO2 lower from tailpipe emissions as a whole. The issues with recycling will get resolved, the bigger issues are geopolitical on raw material and access to it. Hybrid vehicles are for most people I know tax swizz delivering 20-30mpg on their company miles (outlander phew, bmw 3/5series hybrid) and will eventually be phased out and taxed accordingly. The big issue on batteries is affordability if you take an I Pace the cost to replace batteries is c£20/25k! and there is a lot of small print to ensure the warranty is valid on the battery on how you’ve charged it or indeed previous owners have charged it. Newer battery technology should begin to resolve longevity/robustness issues such as these and those in old Leaf vehicles. Solid state batteries when they eventually get here are what I’m waiting for to compare with hydrogen as a proposition.

Hydrogen with non renewable sources for its generation (blue hydrogen) is being chased rapidly in Japan which is why Toyota got lambasted by Green Peace. That said green hydrogen generated from renewable sources is an interesting proposition, one of the arguments has always been wind doesn’t blow when you want it to, so storage in energy that can be used as a fuel for transport or for homes or for electricity generation itself at times where the sun doesn’t shine/wind doesn’t blow seems like a joined up sensible approach and one I can buy into. See below video for why I’m looking at hydrogen this way;



The reason I’m getting (all being well) my ffrr in the coming days is that if I don’t get an l322 now then I probably never will, the next ten years for me are the period to get the cars I always wanted whilst fuel is readily available and whilst they are affordable otherwise I could never afford them in the future as classics (yes l322 is now being classed as a modern classic)or daily running costs will become prohibitive.

Please feel free to disagree with me as the above are a mix of my opinions and insights from my daily job where I speak with most of the major OEMS in automotive and my colleagues who cover yellow goods etc

Paul,

I am well aware of all that you say.

It's simply my opinion that not enough thought is going into the advice & research that we follow,

Looks like my TIC/SOH post has been deleted.

Last edited by SamThomas on 28th Dec 2021 4:58pm. Edited 1 time in total

Slow progress,

I agree with a lot of what you say & do feel that EC's are a "quick fix" to get emissions down. We need joined up thinking, a raft of measures spreading our options & not relying too much on "one size fits all" solutions.

Surely, if we all do something reasonably substantial & not to costly the issues will be resolved ?

I agree with much of what is being said, and it does require some level of joined ups thinking. But we have what we have at the moment, and in all honesty the combo of a Kia Niro and 4.4 SDV8 405 suits me just fine, and for going to the tip I have a smoky old diesel van, for work I have a D4 with an ageing 2.7 Lion V6 and for fun I have an E36 M3 Evo so I’d do have somewhat of a fossil fuel bent…..

But the ecobus is still an excellent car, which was the point of this thread…… There is nothing that can't be fixed with a hammer😜😜
FFRR 4.4 SDV8 Autobiography Santorini Black.
Fiat 500x 1.4 multiair Lounge 2015
2010 LR D4 Commercial 2.7 TDV6

Yay it’s underway

Anyone want to buy a BMW M2 Competition? One careful lady owner from new, just one year old.

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