Hi guys,

I’ve started looking at something to replace my old workhorse Honda CRV with something a bit nicer and fancy a return to the FFRR fold. I had a TD6 a few years ago which I kept for 9 months to scratch an itch and seems to have left more an open wound; I liked it a lot, despite it being a ticking time bomb in the gearbox department and not really having the money at the time to fix it should anything bad happen.

However, times change and I’ve looked at a few things (Navara 3.0/XC70 3.2 i6 etc) but keep coming back to another Range Rover, either late 3.6 TDV8 or 4.4. I have looked at other things but they’re all either lifeless in the case of newer cars, or rustbuckets in the case of older stuff. And even things like recent Audi Allroads aren’t exactly paragons of reliability.

Now I’m aware that these things aren’t exactly VW or Subaru reliability, and never will be, and I’m happy to get my hands dirty if needs be albeit would rather not if I can avoid it by buying the correct model. That and I already have one project in an Impreza. I did briefly contemplate a D4 as the fold flat seats are a major advantage for sleeping in over the FFRR, but the engine issues and quite claustrophobic interior definitely count against it.

So it comes down to 3.6 vs 4.4, but there are some questions that hopefully some of you will be able to answer. Yes, I have searched long and hard through these forums and others, but I do like to go into things with my eyes open so hopefully you’ll indulge me.

• Money being equal, and the impossible one to answer; which is the better option? 2009 3.6 with the non-tft dash, 2010 3.6 with the later spec interior, or 4.4 with the more efficient engine but seemingly its own lot of issues to deal with?
• Engine; was there any more reliability in the 3.6 turbos through the ages or does it come down to mileage and maintenance history? I see there seem to be less comments on failed 4.4 turbos but then there’s the oil drain issue to potentially deal with. Are there any other things to sway one way or the other with these? Is there much to be said about the relative reliability of the 6spd vs 8spd boxes?
• Is there much extra stuff to watch out for suspension wise on the TDV8 generations over the TD6?
• Are the later cars less susceptible to body rust around the rear doors and tailgate or is tin worm an issue there still? Any other bits to be aware of? I seem to be writing a book on where to find the brown rot on newage Impreza shells at the moment…
• Finally, spec. I’m not bothered by going Vogue SE although the ‘nice’ leather would be well, nice. The 19” wheels on the standard spec would be preferable for ride and tyre choice though. The only difference that’s nice is the auto-dimming rear mirrors which seems a surprising omission from the Vogue given my ’03 TD6 HSE had them! If a pair of these came up for a reasonable price, are they retrofittable? I certainly wouldn’t be paying premium on a car just to get the dipping mirrors.
• Finally, I like listening to music via my phone and therefore Bluetooth connectivity is a big thing – what are the controls like between the years, is the 2010-on headunit a better choice for this than the earlier stuff, or does it still hamper being able to just play music straight through the iphone? My dad has a ’15 Evoque with christmas tree spec and it’s got a great interface but a mate had the earlier Evoque and connectivity was decidedly patchy. How does the system in the FFRR compare to these?
• I have a hatred of space savers (and gas canisters). My old one had a full size 20” spare, is there still enough space under the floor for a full size one or have they filled the gap up with something else?
• Finally (hopefully), can you still get the genuine OEM roof rack channels? I need to carry sea kayak’s on the roof and much prefer the look of the OEM style setup to the aftermarket options.

Any pointers/suggestions are appreciated! Hopefully I’ll be able to return the favours and advice down the line as I’m usually pretty good with sharing fixes etc on the current cars.

A few photos of my old FF:

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

Any common issues the 4.4 has will not leave you needing a new engine. The same can’t be said of the 3.6. I went TD6 to 4.4 TDV8 for that reason. The 8 speed gearbox is ace. Mines not had the drain mod done and it doesn’t smoke.... others will have had 3.6’s for years and not had issues, but I didn’t want the worry.

I think newer cars are worse for rust, as a general statement. Either metal is thinner or paint process not as good.

4.4s have 6 pot Brembo brakes which limits choice of alloy and tyre size. 2011 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 TDV8

Previous cars :
2003 Range Rover Vogue TD6
1999 Discovery Td5 ES
1995 BMW M5 3.8 6 speed
1992 Range Rover 3.9 Efi Vogue
1992 BMW M5 3.8
1988 BMW 735i SE
1989 Ford Sierra XR4x4 2.9i
1981 Ford Fiesta Supersport

I had a relatively short time in the land of Rangie ownership, a 4.4 TDV8. I had to have the drain mod done, the smoking was horrendous after a spell of gentle driving, once done it was superb, no smoke at all. During my 18 months - Suspension Airbag, Compressor, Aux Belt Tensioner, Front Disks and pads, Front wishbones. It's a lovely place to be, great way to travel but such an annoying vehicle, the quality control and design from JLR is dreadful. A car that cade wade with brake pipes that corrode, fastening that rust, electric handbrake module conveniently located on top of the subframe - the whole sub frame needs to be removed to gain access to it.
Every day of my ownership I wondered whats going to happen today and to be fair it never let me down but I knew it had the ability to empty my wallet in a heartbeat. I ended up selling at an enormous loss but gained peace of mind.

4.4 TDV8 for sure is the one to go for, it's effortless in every way. BMW i3 Electric Car
2012 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8 (now gone)
2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi V6

4.4 and check for all the usual oil leaks and 007 smoke exhaust cloud on booting it.
4th post down should help https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic44115...p;start=75
As others have said, check all the common issues and you should find a good one  Gone to a good home: 2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE Buckingham Blue with Ivory and clear glass = "Rory"
2025MY Defender D350 90 in Silicon Silver on coils
1974 Series 3 Lightweight = "Millie"
Many, many other Landies over the years
My preferred specialist: www.glenrands.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------

Go 4.4 and budget to spend 5k in the first 12 months to have everything sorted  RR Vogue 4.4 TDV8 - 11
Toyota Land Cruiser Prado - 02

LR Discovery 4 SDV6 -11 - Gone
RR Vogue 3.6 TDV8 - Gone

mjdronfield wrote:

Either metal is thinner or paint process not as good.

I think that would probably be the reason then. I bought mine at 4 years old, and top tailgate had already had to be painted.....

 2011 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 TDV8

Previous cars :
2003 Range Rover Vogue TD6
1999 Discovery Td5 ES
1995 BMW M5 3.8 6 speed
1992 Range Rover 3.9 Efi Vogue
1992 BMW M5 3.8
1988 BMW 735i SE
1989 Ford Sierra XR4x4 2.9i
1981 Ford Fiesta Supersport

Thanks all for the input; I must admit that newer cars frustrate me somewhat as they are clearly built with the idea that the manufacture will finance for the first owner for three years, then sell it as 'approved used' for another three years and then punt into an auction with the expectation that at ten years old it'll be borderline scrap. The amount of plastics on modern cars don't help as they allow so much mud to sit and then rust to fester. No matter what I buy will be getting all the plastics stripped off, properly cleaned and then fully undersealed.

Digressing away from Range Rovers the only car I found that seems to be reasonably reliable is the Volvo XC70. Navaras are not a million miles away from FFRR's and have fairly major engine/diff/chassis issues. Audi Allroads have air suspension and gearbox, and turbo issues. When you're looking for both 4WD and Estate there's really not much out there. I did briefly consider something like a Legacy or Outback estate simply because they're simple, reliable and so cheap you don't really care what happens to it. But then I remembered the amount of rust on my Impreza which is a well cared for car, so I dropped that idea again.

My old TD6 went through three boxes before I got it (might have been the 250bhp map that had something to do with that), and my dad's Evoque which was one of the first Ingenium ones managed 38 trips to the dealer in the first 36 months and is on its 5th steering rack. And yet I still want another

I am definitely swaying towards the 4.4, partly because I like the torque and the smoothness of the 8spd (same box as in the Evoque?), but also the fuel economy for 10-15k.p.a, and the lack of potential turbo issues. I also like the idea of the bigger front brakes. If I was to go for the 2010 3.6, is it the later 380mm 6 pot Brembos I'd need to upgrade to, or the earlier 4 pots? Presumably 19" is the smallest you can fit with these? I'm not overly bothered by that aspect if it is as I like good brakes and you can get some pretty good winter tyres in 19" now. Snow and ground clearance are definitely the main selling point for me over mud-plugging per se. This is what a lowered Impreza gets put through with me; 15 miles of single track snow rallying, all to go winter (ice) climbing:

Click image to enlarge

Well it's funny how things go full circle. I never went for the FFRR, despite looking at a few. And every time I see one, I regret my choice. The reality is that I don't need a jacked up off roader for 99% of my driving, and so I decided to be sensible and go for a BMW 335d X Drive estate as it covered the winter ability mostly. They also do 40mpg average no matter how you drive them and are a lot more fun on country roads than a big truck is. However, and bearing in mind I got this car at 30k (now on 60k);
- 1 set of adaptive dampers under warranty
- 1 variable steering rack under warranty (about to have a second, when they stop pretending to be deaf)
- 2 EGR valves
- 1 transfer case because BMW can't design a 4wd system
- 1 ride height sensor module

Adding to that is that because it has the big 370mm brakes (good) it rides on 19" wheels (bad) and also doesn't have a spare wheel (very bad). Which might be just about tolerable if you live in the south of England, or don't drive outside of cities, and if you have runflats. But if you accept that runflats are a bit rubbish, and frequently drive on rural roads, this leaves you in a bit of a predicament when the council decide to do such a bad job of repairing a 5" deep 2x1m hole in the road that it blows out again in a matter of days. One cracked wheel, one bent wheel, one knackered fluid filled bush and I'm ready to say it Greta, and go for something that also works in those 1% of occasions.

Don't get me wrong, it isn't just down to a pothole that I'm going to jump back into something bigger, it's a combination of things; not enough space for two people to go away with outdoor kit for more than a weekend, not enough ground clearance to get into off road parking spots, not enough ground clearance for deep snow (although I have definitely pushed it more than most people), and just a general lack of 'it' factor when doing anything other than hooning. When hooning, and I mean the sort that overheats tyres and leaves brakes smoking after a run, it's great, absolutely bloody brilliant. But that isn't most of my driving, and it doesn't really do relaxed pottering too well because you're low so don't see road holes and things too easily, and the low profile tyres really point it out to you when you've missed the aforementioned. That and I've just about got the Impreza back on the road for the fun stuff.

So I've been mulling the options over;
- pickups just aren't practical unless you live somewhere people aren't going to nick stuff out the bed, and they're crap in the snow.
- any BMW SUV is out because it's as flaky as everything else they make, has the same crap TC design and stupid staggered tyres on anything with a modicum of power and this means you're meant to use BMW spec tyres so the TC doesn't explode. Hint: it still does.
- Any mercs or Audis are out because well, they're just a bit meh
- Most small soft roader style things from the likes of Honda and Toyota are out because they're expensive for what they are, not any good off road but crap on road and also most are FWD when you start looking.
- XC70's are out because the steering wheel feels like it's not connected to anything and the interior isn't comfortable.
- Disco sports are expensive, unreliable and have zero 'it' factor, and the Disco 4's are expensive for what they are and have some fairly major issues like crank and turbo failures.

I have considered the VW Toerags as I don't mind the looks, and the late spec Jeep Grand Cherokee because I really don't need a 2.7t massive luxury SUV. But the Jeeps have to be the top spec to actually ride well and are a bit erm, chavvy, and the Toerags are a bit erm, germanic.

So I'm back at the FFRR, another unreliable car but at least with the 'it' factor, and the later 4.4's seem to be reasonably reliable, for an LR product, and pretty bloody good value. I was actually about to put the money down on one when I went for the BMW a few years ago but my dad's Evoque was playing up again at the time (it's the single most unreliable vehicle I've every known, but it's a lovely car) and I just got cold feet on the idea. The reality though is that almost every modern car is unreliable and at least the FFRR's have enough space to work on and in the main they're more an older car design than a newer, so they tick the box there. I want to go back to self servicing too, the BMW has a warranty with all that entails and every time I deal with the dealer I end up off at the brazen balls of them to lie, connive and obfuscate even when it's clear I do know more than the average about working on cars. Gah, now to start looking for a needle in a haystack; a lowish mileage, not ten owner, well looked after FFRR that hasn't got a ton of rust on it or ditch finder tyres and questionable service history. This might take a while!

I had a Touareg before my L322, the Touareg is way ahead of the L322 in the corrosion and reliability stakes. I put 200,000 miles on the Touareg with not a single failure, the underside had no rust whatsoever and the bodywork likewise. The 3 litre V6 was a good motor, sounded nice and pulled by 2000kg caravan with no issues.

My L322 was a 2012 4.4 TDV8, the engine was absolutely amazing in terms of torque and economy if driven carefully, the interior was a lovely place to be with some great tech, the satnav did leave a lot to be desired though with some crazy routing decisions no matter what selections were made. Outside the vehicle was a very different matter, horrendous corrosion starting, the subframes having some quite major corrosion, brake pipes, fastenings etc extremely disappointing. Mine needed to have the turbo drain mod done to avoid James Bond style smoke screens when accelerating hard.

The FFRR was an itch that needed to be scratched and that has been done now, would I have another? probably not, that said I probably wouldn't have a Touareg either. You are of course amongst very knowledgeable friends on here which is the best place for FFRR know how. Sit on your hands for a little while, search for a good one (I believe there is one somewhere LOL) and then consider how you feel wondering what might go wrong today as you start up every time. BMW i3 Electric Car
2012 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8 (now gone)
2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi V6

All these cars are >10 years old now so it’s just a case of buying the best particular example and there is no ‘all things being equal’ scenario. All these cars are also now ‘cheap’ to buy so just price up the common fail items on each and work out if you have the budget to run one. 2012 TDV8 Vogue (L322)

AJGalaxy2012 wrote:

I had a Touareg before my L322, the Touareg is way ahead of the L322 in the corrosion and reliability stakes. I put 200,000 miles on the Touareg with not a single failure, the underside had no rust whatsoever and the bodywork likewise. The 3 litre V6 was a good motor, sounded nice and pulled by 2000kg caravan with no issues.

My L322 was a 2012 4.4 TDV8, the engine was absolutely amazing in terms of torque and economy if driven carefully, the interior was a lovely place to be with some great tech, the satnav did leave a lot to be desired though with some crazy routing decisions no matter what selections were made. Outside the vehicle was a very different matter, horrendous corrosion starting, the subframes having some quite major corrosion, brake pipes, fastenings etc extremely disappointing. Mine needed to have the turbo drain mod done to avoid James Bond style smoke screens when accelerating hard.

The FFRR was an itch that needed to be scratched and that has been done now, would I have another? probably not, that said I probably wouldn't have a Touareg either. You are of course amongst very knowledgeable friends on here which is the best place for FFRR know how. Sit on your hands for a little while, search for a good one (I believe there is one somewhere LOL) and then consider how you feel wondering what might go wrong today as you start up every time.

JayGee wrote:

All these cars are >10 years old now so it’s just a case of buying the best particular example and there is no ‘all things being equal’ scenario. All these cars are also now ‘cheap’ to buy so just price up the common fail items on each and work out if you have the budget to run one.

I've calculated all the costs and potential costs of my L322 vs other cars and in the long term it 's but what I can't put in the spreadsheet is the value of what it feels like to be driving one, soaking up the miles in absolute comfort and arriving at a destination after a long drive less tired than when I set out.
Nothing catastrophic is likley to go wrong with a TDV8 4.4 as JLR eventually got it right with the L322 in the last 2 years of production with a reliable ( and fairly economical to run) engine and gearbox combo that they carried over into the L405. Rust is easy to inspect for and some are worse than others. Prices have come down a bit since last year and I predict this will continue.
Buy the car you want and if it goes wrong just fix it  2012 TDV8 Vogue (L322)

@OP

Notice you've got the BMW 330/335 X drive series. Make sure you keep a close eye on the oil levels as they are famous for going pop and blowing the engine up. The police have stopped using them for that very reason. My mate's has just gone bang - new engine required. BMW say no fault of theirs!! The auction house at Leominster has 8 ex police BMWs going for peanuts - because they all have blown engines.

Just to help your decision, I am on my 4th FFRR. All have been pretty much perfect (TD6-faultless: 4.4V8 petrol on 189,000 miles: excellent except for Chain guides £3k: Latest is 4.4 TDV8 - bought off eBay! Faultless until inlet manifold went £1600. Fixed and now perfect again on 118,000 miles. Bought at 80k.

You could do a lot worse than buy off this forum, where members care about their vehicles. If I were you I'd buy Haylands' 4.4 TDV8, up for sale on here. He looks after his vehicles and it's only £10k IIRC. https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic65182.html

I'll even drive it ip to Scotland for you. How about that?

JayGee wrote:

I've calculated all the costs and potential costs of my L322 vs other cars and in the long term it 's but what I can't put in the spreadsheet is the value of what it feels like to be driving one, soaking up the miles in absolute comfort and arriving at a destination after a long drive less tired than when I set out.
Nothing catastrophic is likley to go wrong with a TDV8 4.4 as JLR eventually got it right with the L322 in the last 2 years of production with a reliable ( and fairly economical to run) engine and gearbox combo that they carried over into the L405. Rust is easy to inspect for and some are worse than others. Prices have come down a bit since last year and I predict this will continue.
Buy the car you want and if it goes wrong just fix it

Spreadsheets are a painful way of reminding you of things you can't change! I should know, I've got one for the Impreza over the last ten years All I'll say is that I'm very glad I wasn't paying labour on top of the parts prices...

What you describe on the FFRR is exactly why I'm wanting to go back to one; the BMW is a great pusher but not a great cruiser as you're too low for good vis in bad conditions (although it can cope very well with snow etc) and it's not exactly impervious to damage from poor road surfaces.

That's my view with the late 4.4's too. Yes, I could go for a 3.6 but they've got the turbo issues and the fuel isn't so good on them, and since I was looking before there's less of a premium for the later engine too. Plus the ZF8 is a mighty gearbox. I know of a few things the 4.4 is susceptible to, like the oil drain mod (but then if it was an issue I would assume most would be resolved by now?), and the alternator and starter motor. But they do seem to have a lot less issues than the earlier ones, particularly once the worst of the BMW tech was ditched. I've also got a full ZF service kit for the box too having got one but not yet got around to doing it on the Beemer.

Dolphinboy wrote:

@OP

Notice you've got the BMW 330/335 X drive series. Make sure you keep a close eye on the oil levels as they are famous for going pop and blowing the engine up. The police have stopped using them for that very reason. My mate's has just gone bang - new engine required. BMW say no fault of theirs!! The auction house at Leominster has 8 ex police BMWs going for peanuts - because they all have blown engines.

Just to help your decision, I am on my 4th FFRR. All have been pretty much perfect (TD6-faultless: 4.4V8 petrol on 189,000 miles: excellent except for Chain guides £3k: Latest is 4.4 TDV8 - bought off eBay! Faultless until inlet manifold went £1600. Fixed and now perfect again on 118,000 miles. Bought at 80k.

You could do a lot worse than buy off this forum, where members care about their vehicles. If I were you I'd buy Haylands' 4.4 TDV8, up for sale on here. He looks after his vehicles and it's only £10k IIRC. https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic65182.html

I'll even drive it ip to Scotland for you. How about that? Mr. Green

Cheers, the N57 is actually a pretty indestructible engine in the main, it seems to be the police (lots of time idling followed by hard thrashing) and EGR issues that cause their demise in the main. I've got the pukka BMW warranty on mine anyway so I'm not too worried about that sort of thing anyway, and it's just had it's EGR recall to replace the previously recalled EGR valve. The £70 p/m warranty has definitely proved its worth so far, but then again I'd have probably gone for ACS coilovers rather than replace the adaptive with like for like, and the steering rack would have been repaired rather than replaced (£100 part vs £3000 part) and the same for the TC which you can get refurbed for less than £500. It's all a balancing act.

I take it the inlet manifold is a plastic part, or is it something else which fails on them? I like the look of Hayland's one but I'm planning to keep long term at 15-20k per year so would rather go for the lower miles end of the spectrum, ideally. I'm also likely to wait until after Christmas now as I still need to get rid of the Beemer and sort a few other things out too, but yeah, I'd rather get a well looked after one that maybe needs a few little bits sorting out rather than a potential one owner car that just hasn't been cared for other than the bare minimum servicing.

Cheers for the delivery offer though