Some good points there Paul. As I say we all have different reasons for buying our FFRR but in terms of kit the VSE gets the same leather as the AB, just not on fascia etc but the other is very believable and they share the identical sound system. I buy nearly new rather than brand new and I agree that if you specced a VSE from new to AB level it would cost more but that's not a consideration second hand. And frankly I'd never pay extra for some of the more gimmicky extras like massaging seats, surround cameras and illuminated tread plates for instance.

I find that lots of nearly new VSE's generally have lots of extras fitted and a big proportion of AB's are standard spec and dealers rarely add these extras into the selling price (as they never offer you anything extra for them come trade in) so I personally have no problem finding one with the spec that suits me. My ideal VSE spec would be 21" Diamond cut alloys (22's nice but firmer) privacy glass, winged headrests and to a lesser degree park heat. Buying used is never going to be as exact a science as ordering your own from new but then you are making a saving on the new price and buying a one year old car still feels special . I have to say that from MY17 LandRover have taken the adaptive cruise off the VSE and that would be a must for me, as would be the headrests and to a lesser degree but no deal breaker the park heater.

Good point, it's the Vogue that doesn't get the 825w Meridian system as standard.

Totally agree with some of the features being gimmicks, but i'm getting used to a few of them. Is correct we all like different things as i loathe the Adaptive Cruise & switch that aspect off as soon as i engage CC, choosing to use it in standard mode. I'm getting used to the Lane Departure though (didn't think i would), but of all the features the pre-heat is the one i'm liking the most as never had it on any previous cars & i often have to commence a lengthy journey at 04:30 on a Monday.

Is the leather used definitely the same as i'm sure i was told/heard it's different between the 3 models (i could however have dreamt this). Just spotted i opted for the Style 24 seat upgrade so perhaps that's the difference. Again, personally i love the lashings of leather everywhere as it really adds to the luxury feel & having leather with stitching above my head, in the grab handle recess & all over the dash is stunning.

I perhaps should have looked closer at the lightly used market, but i did really want a MY17 as i'd heard the Infotainment was a challenge in the previous cars so i guess wanted the latest. As per my previous post, this is probably the only FFRR i'll own so i wanted the best available without going mad in the options list, so a lightly spec'd AB seemed the appropriate choice. That said, i am enjoying the car finally & could perhaps see me owning another at some point.

Also agreed, i think these cars are bought for many different reasons/purposes by a variety of buyers so the range does have something for everyone. Paul

MY17 TDV6 Autobiography In Carpathian Grey With Cirrus Interior

The 5.0SC is sooo much more refined than the diesel versions, light and day and that to me is an overwhelming reason to specify the petrol engine version. Try one, the NVH is much superior.
I've had two V6 diesels and they are fabulous but petrol beats diesel all the time in my book.
I've also had Cayenne's, two Turbo's,a V6 diesel and a V8 diesel. The turbo's were bonkers 12 years ago and so much fun but the diesels are very good but not likely to get the heartbeat stirring.

Having also owned an F10 M5 I also understand what excitement is generated by a huge horsepower engine and to be honest it's rare you can use all the performance of most cars these days without getting caught, it's more about the way they perform, the lack of vibration, the sound and the feeling of having more than enough power even though you don't need it.

w8pmc wrote:

Good point, it's the Vogue that doesn't get the 825w Meridian system as standard.

Totally agree with some of the features being gimmicks, but i'm getting used to a few of them. Is correct we all like different things as i loathe the Adaptive Cruise & switch that aspect off as soon as i engage CC, choosing to use it in standard mode. I'm getting used to the Lane Departure though (didn't think i would), but of all the features the pre-heat is the one i'm liking the most as never had it on any previous cars & i often have to commence a lengthy journey at 04:30 on a Monday.

Is the leather used definitely the same as i'm sure i was told/heard it's different between the 3 models (i could however have dreamt this). .

AndyS wrote:

The 5.0SC is sooo much more refined than the diesel versions

But that's the point Andy & i know it's of course down to personal choice, but the FFRR surely isn't the sort of car you'd want to get the heartbeat stirring?? For that you'd buy a Sports or Super car (applying similar costs).

The FFRR to me is about the elevated driving position, that air of quality that only a RR can offer, the Britishness (i realise that's kind of diluted a little now), the status of having a FFRR which can't be matched by the likes of Audi/BMW/Mercedes & even Porsche in this sector. That takes nothing away from the others, but they're just not Range Rovers.

Perhaps i'm a little deluded & i'm certainly not what you'd call a fan of all things LR, but if you want the epitome of Luxury SUV, then the FFRR tops that pile.

If i wanted a car to stir my senses & get my heartbeat racing then a FFRR would be way down that list. I too had an F10 M5 & that was a 750bhp Monster & i agree it can't be exploited to it's full on the road, however it did get a lot of track use in the UK & Europe & was driven on the Continent. I'd not take any RR near a track but can imagine it's epic crossing the Continent.

To give another example, i attended Hypermax III in the Autumn last year at Brunters in my modified F10 M5 & 2 RRS SVR's attended, however when they took off i was virtually falling about laughing, as although they sounded really nice they looked like they were about to tip over backwards when launched & were as you'd expect beaten by everything off the line & top speed, the owners also agreed stopping was somewhat of a white knuckle ride. Now i'm sure they had fun & i certainly did, but a loud & big power SUV just doesn't make any sense (to me). I'm glad they exist as love the fact Mfctrs still build bonkers cars, but for speed, performance, agility & senses stirring a FFRR isn't a car i'd ever consider, as for £100k the availability of far more capable cars is infinite.

Perhaps i should try one however as i'm only speaking of my long standing opinion not experience, but i simply don't get it.

The TDV6 is about as refined as i think these cars could get, it's more than quick enough, very quiet, feels far lighter than it is & handles better than it's size would suggest, would sticking a louder engine with more horsepower but the same torque really stir the senses? It would be a giggle i'm sure of that.

Will just validate my opinion in that i'm very new to the brand & this is my first & only JLR model. Paul

MY17 TDV6 Autobiography In Carpathian Grey With Cirrus Interior

Well done Paul; it's good that such diversity exists on the forum and I share many of your views. As I mentioned I've never been in the 5.0 SC. I have in the old 4.2 SC and that certainly wouldn't have been my choice but I know the new one is much more powerful and refined.

Cheers bas, a good read  2010 defender utility
2010 RRS TDV8 (gone)
2007 discovery 3 (gone)
2004 discovery 4 (gone)
1994 discovery 1
1970 v8 hybrid (gone)
1975 bobtail (gone)

Wonder if I need an extended drive of a TDV6 - the flat(ter) handling of the SDV8 is a real advantage over the old L322, but I agree that it could be more refined.

I honestly can't tell any difference in handling between the two diesel L405's. The V8 is over 100 kilos heavier than the V6 so I presume the tricks were added only to the V8 to make it handle better than it otherwise would have but I'd say there wasn't a lot between the two, although I'm no Lewis Hamilton and don't go anywhere on two wheels.

As I sit here I can see that both engines are very good, in different ways; so ultimately it depends how you drive if the ultimate deciding factor is the engine. I think I'm leaning towards the smaller engine but ultimately as I buy nearly new I'd be more interested in the spec suiting me and whatever engine I get, I know is still going to be great.

Finally, if this helps I can see that if I'd only ever had V8 diesel FFRR's I'd be very happy and satisfied with the overall package but I haven't and know how good the V6 is but these are still early days

This thread has been a very interesting read for me - but I'm still none the wiser. Obviously we all like different things with our cars, but it does surprise me how so many of you have and prefer the oil burners. I am a petrolhead - in the widest sense of enjoying cars and nearly all aspects of motoring - but the Petrol part is an essential ingredient. Under any normal circumstances I would never buy a diesel car. IMHO on any measure at all except fuel cost per mile the 5.0 is the best FFRR to be in. Its faster, its more responsive, its effortless, its more refined. Its obviously still not a track car but its dynamically better (sometimes marginally sometimes hugely) than the diesels in every respect. I've only ever owned Petrol RRs but the dealers cater for the masses so only ever have diesels available to borrow when mine are in for a fettle. They are very good, they are surprisingly fast, they are much less like a diesel car than diesel cars used to be. But that's it, they are still a poorer substitute for the real thing. Now like most, I don't like to just wander around haemorrhaging twenties for a pastime. But neither are we generally talking about the section of the population that are trying to get from A to B at the lowest cost per mile. (I really really am not getting at anyone running one of these on a shoestring - good luck to you if you are, a very brave decision) We typically are the people prepared to spend 10 times the amount necessary to get an acceptable form of transport in order to indulge our whims. Why then after taking that huge leap of capital investment do people worry about doubling their fuel bill which probably amounts to about £1k year extra. Or maybe a tenth of the depreciation that they've willingly bought into. I cant see any other criteria other than fuel cost that makes any of the diesels a better car than the petrol. And yet the diesels have such a stranglehold there's rarely any petrol models even on demo in the dealers - certainly none in the three I've recently visited in the SouthWest. It doesn't make any sense to me at all..... JM2PW Mike - MPx

2017 5.0 V8 Supercharged SVAutobigraphy Dynamic SVO Palette Grey (2021-...)
2012 5.0 V8 Supercharged Autoboigraphy Orkney Grey (2017-2021)
2007 4.2 V8 Supercharged Vogue SE Tonga Green (2012-2017)
2002 4.4 V8 Vogue Bonnatti Grey (2008-2012)

Dear Mike,

What an interesting summary. I have to say that the 4.4 engine just seems perfectly suited to shifting what is a large and (albeit constructed from lightweight material) and heavy car. The waves of torque produced by the engine quash inertia so effectivley I couldn't imagine the SC being a better alternative.

Thank you for your thoughts which have inspired me to email my dealer and ask for a SC for a couple of days - I am about to change my car for a new one and, given what you have said, I am open to that being a SC.

Kind regards,

Adam

Mike, I don't think anyone thinks & I'm certainly not slating the Petrol FFRR over the diesel variant & I like you have in the main owned performance car's that have all been petrol, but & it's a big but, I really don't feel the FFRR is the right application for a large & loud fire breathing petrol engine.

Look at the newly introduced FFRR petrol engine, how can that be a sensible block in the line up? It adds nothing to performance, weighs more & drinks more than even the 3.0 diesel, so other than perhaps sounding a little better it's pointless. This then asks the question, would anyone buy the FFRR for the sound? Of course we all like different things & I'm certainly more pro petrol than diesel, but I guess some vehicles are better suited to different engines.

You mention effortless & refined (nobody can argue the fire breather isn't quicker & louder), but I'd hazard a guess the 405's on road natural environment is more motorway/A road as hooning round the narrow back roads at pace in such a vehicle I'd find challenging. Now at 85mph on a motorway with the cruise set I'm at 1850rpm which is certainly effortless, in my previous 4.4 litre twin turbo V8 I'd be over 3k rpm at the same speed, so in that scenario which is one my 405's in often, the oil burner appears to be the more refined & effortless.

Flipping it on it's head, I'd hate the idea of a diesel Porsche 911 or indeed any other Sports car. Paul

MY17 TDV6 Autobiography In Carpathian Grey With Cirrus Interior

I do agree about the 3L petrol engine Paul. To me that's LandRover taking an active role in the muddled thinking of its customers. Diesels cars are under attack from the bandwagon so they'll offer a petrol version at a cheaper price point. It wont be as good as the diesels or the 5.0 but, as I argued above, (my view of) "the best" is not what the vast majority of the customer base buys anyway for reasons that aren't clear to me.

Like you and Basilfawlty and I'm sure others on here, I have other cars for hooning about and track days and short local runs to the shops. But the FFRR is what I do most of my miles in. I don't cover as much distance as I used to, but still 12k to 15k a year in the FFRR. That's many hours in the car, and its a lovely place to be. Most miles are effortless cruising on motorways or duals (at my preset 70ish mph - cough cough - that's also under 2000 rpm) - and they would be almost as good in an oil burner. ( I say almost because in the SC there is still the option of a big grin moment if you want to let rip for a few seconds which wouldn't be at all the same in the Diesel!) Inevitably, where we live in the West I do a fair milage on country, so called, A roads. Country A roads are like lanes in most definitions - often not wide enough for a centre line in places and with short straights - but as they are the only routes to some destinations they get classed as A roads anyway. On these roads the SC is just wonderful. It can gather up its skirts and woosh past a lorry or even a line of 2 or 3 cars in the shortest of straights without being a hooligan or dangerous. Not only makes journeys shorter, but lots more fun.

I'm not arguing that its the best car for all types of driving, but what I am convinced about is that the 5.0 SC is the best that a big comfy SUV can be for all types of driving... Mike - MPx

2017 5.0 V8 Supercharged SVAutobigraphy Dynamic SVO Palette Grey (2021-...)
2012 5.0 V8 Supercharged Autoboigraphy Orkney Grey (2017-2021)
2007 4.2 V8 Supercharged Vogue SE Tonga Green (2012-2017)
2002 4.4 V8 Vogue Bonnatti Grey (2008-2012)

I take your point Mike but it's worth considering the V8 Diesel 405 is only 0.6 of a second slower than the 322 SC to 60 mph and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the gap narrowed towards 100mph as the 405 is a bit more slippery and less heavy.