fullfatrr.com - View topic - Range Rover 2003 Torque Converter

Advertise on fullfatrr.com »

Forum · Gallery · Wiki · Shop · Sponsors

Home · FAQ · New Posts · My Posts · PMs · Search · Members · Map · Calendar · Profile · Donate · Register · Log In

Home > Technical (L322) > Range Rover 2003 Torque Converter

Page 1 of 3

Print this entire topic ·

Buff Rio

Member Since: 29 Dec 2012
Location: Banstead
Posts: 36

2009 Range Rover Westminster TDV8 Mariana Black

Range Rover 2003 Torque Converter

Dear Forum

I have a judder on slight incline at lowish revs, it goes away if you select sport mode. I have read that this is a torque converter problem but just wondered would it judder if it didn't have the correct ZF lifeguard fluid in it ? Only asking as it was supposed to have had a recon box and TC 18 months ago. I took it back to the garage and they changed the oil in the gearbox but only charged my £ 100.00 but I thought the fluid alone cost that. Or am I clutching at straws and pretty soon its going to stop working ? it has been doing it for about 8 months so just keep going.

Cheers Chris 2006 3.0 TD6 Vogue Black - sold
2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE Black - sold
2007 4.2 supercharged Vogue SE Grey - sold
2003 4.4 V8 Vogue green - sold
2009 3.6 TDV8 westminster mariana black 59 plate - current

5th Oct 2016 8:54pm

mattstevenson2005

Member Since: 01 Jan 2011
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 737

2003 Range Rover Autobiography 4.4 V8 Java Black

Sounds like it could be a torque converter lock up clutch issue, does the judder happen at certain speeds? The lockup clutch is disabled when in sports mode which helps with this theory.

The correct fluid is around £11 per litre and you need about 6 litres for a refill. If you can check the colour it should be straw colour, if it's red they have used dextron which is very bad for the ZF5HP24 transmission and would need to be drained, flushed and refilled with the correct fluid.

Can you not ask them what fluid they have used?

Matt Current
2012 Range Rover 5.0L SC Ultimate Edition
2012 Range Rover 4.4L TDV8 Autobiography
2010 Range Rover 3.6L TDV8 Autobiography
2003 Range Rover 4.4L V8 Bespoke Vehicle

Inventor of the retro fit paddle shift and many other modifications.
Creator of the custom 2010+ RR MK4 splash screen.
Creator of the Range Rover CarPC and lots more!

Founder of Range Rover Owner
rangeroverowner.com | Facebook.com/RangeRoverOwner | Latest Videos âžž YouTube.com/RangeRoverOwner

5th Oct 2016 9:52pm

miggit

Member Since: 12 Jul 2014
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 3658

Have you considered a miss-fire? Thought I had a knackered TC, turned out to be 1.5 dead injectors Yesterday I couldn't spell Engineer... Today I are one!
Inventor of the 'Guide-o-Matic automatic wheel alignment tool'
Former long term L322 owner, Up/Down graded to a Classic Tractor!

5th Oct 2016 10:54pm

Buff Rio

Member Since: 29 Dec 2012
Location: Banstead
Posts: 36

Torque converter

Hi Matt

Yes the judder happens at same low speeds 15-25 mph never when going faster. And yes will ask them just didn't want to be questioning the experts if you know what I mean

Cheers Chris 2006 3.0 TD6 Vogue Black - sold
2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE Black - sold
2007 4.2 supercharged Vogue SE Grey - sold
2003 4.4 V8 Vogue green - sold
2009 3.6 TDV8 westminster mariana black 59 plate - current

6th Oct 2016 6:11am

Haylands

Member Since: 04 Mar 2014
Location: East Yorkshire
Posts: 8377

2014 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Loire Blue

Miggit, he's got a proper one with a petrol engine, they don't get misfires...

Well. alright, maybe they do, but you will get a fault up if it does, not like that fuel of the devil thing you own...... Pete
I now have permission from the boss to use Y.O.L.O. Enjoy life
__________________________________________________
2014 L405 Autobiography SDV8 4.4 Loire Blue Ebony interior
2011 L322 Vogue SE 4.4 TDV8 Baltic Blue. Sold
2012 L322 Autobiography 5.0 Supercharged Ipanema Sand Sold
2002 L322 Vogue 4.4 V8 Epson Green (Fatty Offroader) Sold
-Click for Project Fatty off roader-

6th Oct 2016 1:55pm

Buff Rio

Member Since: 29 Dec 2012
Location: Banstead
Posts: 36

2006 3.0 TD6 Vogue Black - sold
2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE Black - sold
2007 4.2 supercharged Vogue SE Grey - sold
2003 4.4 V8 Vogue green - sold
2009 3.6 TDV8 westminster mariana black 59 plate - current

6th Oct 2016 2:32pm

miggit

Member Since: 12 Jul 2014
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 3658

Get a fault light even from a dodgy spark plug, that's more than impressive

I only said about the miss-fire, cos up until the very second that the injectors let go good and proper, sending me in to chug mode , it really did feel like the TC clutch was well on it's way out, the second that I drove it having cleaned / rebuilt the injectors, the car was silky smooth Yesterday I couldn't spell Engineer... Today I are one!
Inventor of the 'Guide-o-Matic automatic wheel alignment tool'
Former long term L322 owner, Up/Down graded to a Classic Tractor!

6th Oct 2016 2:38pm

Buff Rio

Member Since: 29 Dec 2012
Location: Banstead
Posts: 36

Thanks Miggit, I did have that on my diesel one but don't think this is the same 2006 3.0 TD6 Vogue Black - sold
2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE Black - sold
2007 4.2 supercharged Vogue SE Grey - sold
2003 4.4 V8 Vogue green - sold
2009 3.6 TDV8 westminster mariana black 59 plate - current

6th Oct 2016 2:46pm

RRPhil

Member Since: 22 Aug 2011
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 982

I’m not a fan of fluid additives (friction modifiers) because of the risk that they may trash all of the controller’s adaptive learning but – if you already have Dexron in there - for the sake of £12 you could temporarily ‘shudder fixx’ your fluid just to prove the LUC is at fault and then remove all trace of it when you replace the torque converter (as you’d be doing a full transmission refill with the correct fluid).

Click image to enlarge

Phil

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated

6th Oct 2016 2:47pm

mattstevenson2005

Member Since: 01 Jan 2011
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 737

This additive looks very interesting to see if it solves his issue

Matt Current
2012 Range Rover 5.0L SC Ultimate Edition
2012 Range Rover 4.4L TDV8 Autobiography
2010 Range Rover 3.6L TDV8 Autobiography
2003 Range Rover 4.4L V8 Bespoke Vehicle

Inventor of the retro fit paddle shift and many other modifications.
Creator of the custom 2010+ RR MK4 splash screen.
Creator of the Range Rover CarPC and lots more!

Founder of Range Rover Owner
rangeroverowner.com | Facebook.com/RangeRoverOwner | Latest Videos âžž YouTube.com/RangeRoverOwner

6th Oct 2016 4:42pm

Buff Rio

Member Since: 29 Dec 2012
Location: Banstead
Posts: 36

Thanks Phil, but I tried this before I had the gearbox oil changed and it didn't stop it. Some fluid came out when I was putting it in and that was red like normal ATF so maybe it is the wrong ATF ? 2006 3.0 TD6 Vogue Black - sold
2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE Black - sold
2007 4.2 supercharged Vogue SE Grey - sold
2003 4.4 V8 Vogue green - sold
2009 3.6 TDV8 westminster mariana black 59 plate - current

7th Oct 2016 4:49am

RRPhil

Member Since: 22 Aug 2011
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 982

There are a couple of issues with the torque converter lock-up clutch on the 5HP24 :

Design – because the LUC frequently operates in a ‘controlled slip’ mode (to absorb torsional vibration) with a low slip speed (<100rpm), the relationship between the fluid’s static and dynamic coefficient of friction is critical to prevent control oscillation. ZF define that it must fall between these boundaries :

The only way to be 100% sure that the fluid has the correct friction modifier pack is to use a ZF-approved fluid i.e. Mobil ATF LT71141, ZF Lifeguard Fluid 5 or Pentosin ATF-1.

Click image to enlarge

I have stripped a number of 5HP24s that had been filled with Dexron, for example, and seen the consequences.

Wear – The 5HP24 LUC uses a captive clutch (i.e. the LUC piston spring retainer is friction welded into position on the centre tower) where the total piston movement is only around 1mm.

Click image to enlarge

It therefore takes relatively little wear of the friction plate to upset the return spring preload and this seems to typically happen soon after the 100k miles mark is reached. Once the friction plate wears you start to hear the ‘cattle grid’ noise. I replaced mine at 107k miles and when I stripped the TC I found that there was still material left on the LUC friction plate but no oil grooves.

Click image to enlarge

Another forum member (ghur) hadn’t caught his soon enough :

Click image to enlarge

Because of the welded ‘captive clutch’ design it’s very important that, if you have one of these TCs re-manufactured, you send it to someone who has a lot of experience - and the necessary kit - to re-weld the retainer plate accurately back into position after the friction plate has been replaced. Do you have any paperwork that says who re-manufactured your TC 18 months ago?

Assuming that the TC re-manufacturer did replace the LUC friction plate it would seem most likely that your LUC shudder will be due to the fluid (friction coefficient). Your dilemma is that it will be quite expensive to do at least three drain & refills with the correct fluid to get the bulk of the old stuff out of the system.

Phil

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated

7th Oct 2016 9:11am

miggit

Member Since: 12 Jul 2014
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 3658

Is it not possible to power flush the gearbox? like you can on the TD6, keep adding fluid at the filler and removing it at the cooler return?

I would have thought that this was fairly easy to do, especially as there will be a complete change in colour with the oil..... there wont be any guesses is that clean enough... as you'd be going from red to straw...... Yesterday I couldn't spell Engineer... Today I are one!
Inventor of the 'Guide-o-Matic automatic wheel alignment tool'
Former long term L322 owner, Up/Down graded to a Classic Tractor!

7th Oct 2016 9:39am

Buff Rio

Member Since: 29 Dec 2012
Location: Banstead
Posts: 36

Thanks Phil

Wow, you really know your stuff. I think I will just buy the correct fluid and try it, got to be worth it. I think I have seen step by step instructions on here for gearbox oil change so should be ok

Thanks again 2006 3.0 TD6 Vogue Black - sold
2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE Black - sold
2007 4.2 supercharged Vogue SE Grey - sold
2003 4.4 V8 Vogue green - sold
2009 3.6 TDV8 westminster mariana black 59 plate - current

7th Oct 2016 9:40am

Haylands

Member Since: 04 Mar 2014
Location: East Yorkshire
Posts: 8377

Miggit's idea is good, otherwise you have to do at least three oil changes....

Phil sure knows his stuff, I expect you will be doing business with him soon... my box was like yours when I got it with red oil in and it didn't last long, even after I changed the oil for the proper stuff...

With hindsight I'd have saved the money and just done the box but I suppose it's worth a try.... Pete
I now have permission from the boss to use Y.O.L.O. Enjoy life
__________________________________________________
2014 L405 Autobiography SDV8 4.4 Loire Blue Ebony interior
2011 L322 Vogue SE 4.4 TDV8 Baltic Blue. Sold
2012 L322 Autobiography 5.0 Supercharged Ipanema Sand Sold
2002 L322 Vogue 4.4 V8 Epson Green (Fatty Offroader) Sold
-Click for Project Fatty off roader-

7th Oct 2016 11:50am

Page 1 of 3

All times are GMT

Jump to

< Previous Topic | Next Topic >

Posting Rules

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum