Hi All,

This question relates to the 4.4 NA V8 engine.,,

After looking on eBay at past and present spares or repairs 4.4 v8s they all seem to fail within around 130-170k with a common theme... oil pressure light comes on - need engine rebuild.

Touch wood have no issues like this but if so many of the failures are this - what is the common cause and what can prevent it?


Thanks

Dan

M62 V8 4.4 Petrol.
An engine not particularly prone to total failure.

Some engines experience Vanos noise (rattling sound)
Timing chain can be an issue.

Are you talking about oil pump drive chain?

Be 100% sure to use Synthetic engine oil and correct weight for your region.

Is your engine noisy........rattling?

Hi rr - not really nosey just clatters for a second or two on a cold start..?

From personal experience, of buying an early BMW engined v8 as a spares and repairs, with a near knackered engine. (140k) my symptom, and a few I've seen, as being interested in the failure, is the timing chain guides. Not the chain itself.
In a nutshell. The chain runs in a sort of love heart shaped circuit. At each peak, and at the centre, and sides, the chain, is running, against a nylon material. Being driven, by cogs in mesh. These nylon guides, go brittle, with age. (Remember, this engine was built to run hot, to clear emissions) at perhaps any point, in its mature life, the guides can break up, the centre guide, has its nylon material, clipped onto the aluminium bracket...when it cracks, the chain tensioner, cannot take up the slack, that the chain now runs on. The chain, may/might get you home at low rpm, and may sound terrible. As it clatters against the lower timing cover., (centre guide broken) thus filing it away. My advice at this point, is not to run it at all, but to simply remove the lower sump. This reveals any nylon pieces, and confirms the damage. It can be repaired, but is a two day job, if all parts, are at hand, and is say, your first attempt.
There is a huge , and very good write up, here
http://www.beisansystems.com/procedures/m62tu_vanos_procedure.htm

Not to be confused with, but worth doing at this point, is Vanos rattle. This is as not serious, as it sounds. And is caused by seals at low revs, letting by, and causing a mistaken engine rattle. Use YouTube to find this noise. This is covered, in the write up, at the beginning of the job. At higher revs, it's not an issue.
A set of engine setting tools are required. Not cheap!
So, to do the typical chain guides repair, with original parts, without buying the tools, is about £600, (chain/guides/gaskets/sundries) then, add £120 for the vanos seals and tool for that, and my toolset, was only a laser branded one, but that was £400 in 2013.
Engine stays in car, heads stay on, front of car stays on.
This guy shows you the typical damage, at around 9 minutes, the centre rail, the nylon guide has come off, so chain, will be running against the metal, and chain will have huge slack. ( ignore the oil pump mini chain)


This was the same as my experience, though my right guide had broken in half too. No doubt because chain slack caused it.
I don't know what causes it to happen, other that high-heat bake?
Certainly not long oil change intervals. -in my opinion.

After all that, although the the engine will be sounding bad, I'm not sure, the the oil light would be on, as there is typically oil pressure. Unless the pump has indeed failed. Again, it can be diagnosed if the lower sump was removed, and the separate chain had failed, ( they are loose) and if pump was seized? Then it would be 'tight'
But, if the guide material, had blocked the pick up tube, then, this would starve the engine, of 'blood' and that would kill it.
These engines are hard to buy secondhand. At a realistic price, relative to the ageing cars' residual value.

Danwilderspin wrote:

Hi All,

This question relates to the 4.4 NA V8 engine.,,

After looking on eBay at past and present spares or repairs 4.4 v8s they all seem to fail within around 130-170k with a common theme... oil pressure light comes on - need engine rebuild.

Touch wood have no issues like this but if so many of the failures are this - what is the common cause and what can prevent it?


Thanks

Dan

Ok - so I'm 99percent sure I just have the couple of second vanos rattle I googled m62 chain guide figure and it sounded like a whine noise which mines not doing (not saying anything wrong with my car here at all btw) but it's at 140k where I've seen the failures - do people on here just change them or do they usually wait for a sign of failure - I'm guessing a horrible sound change from the engine?

If you have start up vanos rattle, you could actually cure it, by changing the solenoid return valve seals.
Read up on this. If you have a deep socket, that will fit onto the solenoid, you can take them out, and with the correct (Allen key/torx?) unscrew each one. And change the seals. Replace the solenoid outer oil seals at same time. This will hold the residual oil, in the solenoid so, and should at least prevent the solenoid from having to wait for pumped oil.
Chain does not need maintenance here. However, if you were to remove the diff/sump shield, and lower sump. You would at least have an idea, of what is sloshing around in the sump. And a new gasket, will be best there too. You at least know your oil pick up is clear.
If at any time, you hear some real bad noise, throughout revving, pull over!
I can only guess as to what you engine is doing right now. But vanos rattle sounds more hollow and dull, than chain slap, and it's metal to metal shrill sound of impending doom.
Vanos rattle is not serious. Can be ignored. (Until selling) However, to repair is quite a job. And is best done, with the guides. The hardest part of the whole job, is getting off the crankshaft nut. You need like I did to make up a tool, to lock the crank, and with a 3/4inch 2ft socket breaker bar, and a 5 ft scaffold bar, slid over, standing on the front slam panel, pull like hell to get it undone! Then, with it off, you can proceed with removing front lower timing cover.
The timing TDC locking pin, is only used to lock the engine, not to be used to hold crank whilst using pole etc. -if it sheared, you are in big trouble.
My tool is just a flat bar, with 8 holes drilled in it, bolted to crank, and swung round, to jam against front subframe. After use, engine is set to TDC, and locked.
I can't advise anyone, when to do this job. But it's a decent job, to do, to cure a few leaks, you might have, and noises, and piece of mind, that your lump is worthy of another 140k,
I would consider the reduced temp thermostat, to bring down said engine temperature, as I have done, a useful job too.

When I did mine my engine sounded very quiet, and has no real leaks, apart from the valley pan, that I have now completed. So, I'm confident driving it now, that it has many more miles etc.
Just bear in mind, that we are talking about high mileages here, and warranty long since expired. Just knowing what could happen, is useful.
If the chain, was to jump, or snap, it would typically kill the engine. This with secondhand engines, going for £1500-2000, plus fitting, often means the car is scrapped. So, it's a bit like Russian Roulette, just like typical newer cars and the timing belt issue. But, as said, these are great engines in my opinion. They just slowly cook themselves, and leak, fluids, and in my opinion, go brittle in places.

Like Johnniyairey said. I would add that the solenoid check valves are cheap and made a big difference with start up rattle for me. I also use 10w/30 since I don't live in the arctic. I use the rattle as an indicator of oil health. More rattle = dirty or old oil. Changing the oil filter every 3k miles helps too. When ever Rockauto sends me a notice of supplier close out I get 10 or more for $1.50 each.

As for the 32mm socket to remove the solenoids theoretically the solenoids shouldn't be in very tight and a rubber band wrench should do it. Mine were in very tight. It was much cheaper to buy a common deep socket 32mm and grind down the walls on a bench grinder to fit.

With 140k I sure would be gathering all the parts, knowledge, YouTube videos and tools needed to do the job.

Hi guys - thanks for the advise I will keep an eye for the bad sounds and do the vanos check for now - those guides sound way to involved and much of a diy for me so may hold fire unless something sounds bad or oil light on... Also have already done the stat mod so hopefully helps.. I'm running 10w40 not sure if that's relevant

Side note I change the filter at the scheduled time (oil) and I pulled it out and it broke in half - I wondered if this was in a little longer would it fall apart and block the pickup? Maybe another reason

Fully synthetic oils are rated for 15k miles or so it is said. No filter out there is good for more than 5k miles. I haven't found a cartridge type filter good from much more that 3k miles. 5 min job on these urban tanks.

Really on the filter? I've got an m6 I do oil and filter at 10k and its comes out solid and a 330 which is exactly the same...

I'm not sure what you are saying when you say the oil came out solid. As for filters there are a number of independents and companies that have done the tests on at what point the filter can't hold anymore particles. That leaves the oil to contain the particles.

Edit: OK I've got to say that over the years the filter media seems to be improving and claims of higher miles on the higher end filters. I haven't found any studies confirming the filters in question can still perform as efficiently near the end as they do near the beginning.