Hi,

My 2007 TDV8 3.6 has developed a shudder under load which from various random searches would seem to point towards a possible torque converter issue. The car has been well looked after given its age and 190k miles having had two gearbox services, one during my ownership.

I wanted to seek your collective wisdom on whether this would appear to be an accurate assessment given the below observations on the cars behaviour;
- Shudders under load, was first only up hills and with the car accelerating through the mid range but seems to have become more common place but definitely only when the car is under load.
- If the car is held at a constant throttle @ around 40 - 50mph - the revs tend to wander a bit within about a 500rpm range up/down.
- If operated in manual the effect seems to be reduced but I could be wrong as haven't tested this extensively yet but it could just be that the gearing is knocked up as a result.
- The car has recently developed a small transmission leak that may or may not be relevant, but the car was misbehaving before this leak.
- Other than the above the gearbox operates fine, changes in manual when you ask it, changes in auto without noticeable delays or odd noises.
- There are no lights or fault codes (to my knowledge).

Obviously my first step might be to get the transmission level checked and see if it changes anything but to be fair I doubt it.

I enquired with a local transmission specialist who was recommended (although obviously not that clued up on Land Rover products as insisted I had a 5 speed ZF box ) but on hearing my symptoms instead of having a conversation about the TC they suggested that the only way they would carry out the work would be to replace the gearbox and TC with a fully reconditioned unit at a cost of £3.5 to £4k - I had to smile slightly as the website says "Our first instinct is not to replace your entire gear box"

I have no issue putting money into the car, in fact I expect to spend money on maintaining it etc - but a £4k spend on a car not worth that in all probability really doesn't make much sense at all. However I want to find a way of keeping it going.

So boys and girls my questions are as follows;

- Is my diagnosis sounding plausible or am I off the mark?
- Aside from the obvious fluid checks what might I be missing?
- What would you do?

I'd sooner spend the money on getting the car I have right rather than selling it on knowing its not right (which doesn't sit right with me) or buying another of an unknown status - at least with the car I have, old and tatty it may be, but I know all its foibles (mostly!!!).

Thoughts and advice most welcome, especially any recommendations for specialists who might help.

Jon

you could put in a second hand gearbox and tq .............or have you tried a couple of tubes dr tranny lubegard .im sure ive read some ppl have used this and had some good results

Good advice, I’ll give it a go as not much to be lost I suspect.

There are various specialists offering “rebuild” services etc - I think what I need (assuming a simple solution like above doesn’t improve things) is a competent person to assess the car and find budget friendly solutions to the problem.

It’s not my main car and use it mainly for longer journeys and throwing a dirty dog in etc but it’s a good car and deserves to be kept going so I’ve mentally given myself a couple of grand budget to sort this out and get it through it’s next MOT without too much drama.

I don't know for sure with your particular gearbox, all of my L322 auto gearbox issues were with my 2002 4.4 Petrol with the ZF 5hp24 gearbox. The gearbox is a known weakspot with the early BMW engined V8 petrols (M62 engine), but not anywhere near as bad as the TD6 L322's with the GM box.

Certainly a shudder that comes in and out under light load (usiually when going uphill slightly) with the 5hp24 gearbox indicates torque converter lock up issue. It feels a bit like going over those raised painted rumble strips. Keep driving it like this and the torque converter clutch lining ends up all through the gearbox and an expensive gearbox rebuild is next.

Your issue could be as simple as the lock up solenoid needs replacing at this stage, or even easier the O ring on the lock up solenoid needs replacing.

My advice would be to speak to another transmission place. Paying for them to drop the oil would give them an indication of potential damage / friction material contamination.

I thought all TDV8 L322 gearboxes were very robust? I know the 8 speed on the 4.4 TDV8 is legendary, but thought the one on the 3.6 (6HP26?) was also regarded as a very good box. Although 190K is getting on a bit and the 500 rpm waver sounds a bit suspect. If you hadn't said that, I'd be thinking it could be centre prop bearing issues.

If you have a diagnostic tool, check for error codes and also log the transmission oil temp. You could also log a journey and plot engine rpm / turbine rpm / input shaft RPM, etc to see differences indicating any non-lock up.

Another option is to get an Indy to fit a 2nd hand gearbox & TC out of a low mile 3.6? I only recommend this as the box is regarded as a good 'un. That's the route I would follow if you wanted to keep costs down and the oil that comes out of yours is badly contaminated.

Jon 1992 RR Classic 3.9 efi Vogue
2014 Disco 4 HSE
===================
Both my fatties now gone...
Previous: 2011 L322 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE /// 2002 L322 4.4 V8 HSE /// 2009 Discovery 3 2.7 TDV6 XS /// 2004 Defender 90 TD5 /// 1993 110 V8 Snatch Landrover /// 2005 Discovery 3 2.7 TDV6 SE (Aus) /// 1990 110 Isuzu 3.9 County (Aus) /// 1976 Series III Trayback (Aus)

Thanks for the reply Jon, some useful points;

D3Jon wrote:

It feels a bit like going over those raised painted rumble strips.

D3Jon wrote:

Your issue could be as simple as the lock up solenoid needs replacing at this stage, or even easier the O ring on the lock up solenoid needs replacing.

That would be joyful

D3Jon wrote:

My advice would be to speak to another transmission place. Paying for them to drop the oil would give them an indication of potential damage / friction material contamination

Thanks, solid advice which I'll follow-up on.

I'll try to update when I've had chance to get it looked at - which is easier said than done as I've had two garages basically turn me down and my usual garage is giving me "go away" quotes so I'm finding myself going down lower and lower on the garage food chain to find someone interested in working on it.

Dartford Transmissions and Autocare. LR and gearbox specialist  Gone to a good home: 2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE Buckingham Blue with Ivory and clear glass = "Rory"
2025MY Defender D350 90 in Silicon Silver on coils
1974 Series 3 Lightweight = "Millie"
Many, many other Landies over the years
My preferred specialist: www.glenrands.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------

Have you checked for brakes binding by any chance. I had vibration similar to yours but turned out to be a binding rear brake.

DrRob wrote:

Dartford Transmissions and Autocare. LR and gearbox specialist

nicedayforit wrote:

Have you checked for brakes binding by any chance. I had vibration similar to yours but turned out to be a binding rear brake.

Next time I have it out I'll see if the calipers are unusually hot but not noticed that. I hadn't actually thought of this as the vibration definitely feels more "centred" on the car when it does it.

Finally got it booked in at a local LR place 25th this month for a pre MOT inspection, they are going to spend an hour or so going through it to spot any obvious issues that would be a headache at MOT time so I'll ask them to double check.

Appreciate the advice chaps, knew you lot wouldn't let me down

J

Had this on my 2008 3.6 tdv8, changed gearbox oil and put some dr tranny in it which cured it for about 4000 miles then I started feeling shudder again going uphill so recon torque converter and bridge seals changed plus oil and filter again and all good again. So my thoughts are torque converter on its way out if you leave it too long it will break up and kill the box.

Sounds like the torque converter to me. Dr Tranny will help with idle shudder but not the symptoms you're describing.

Absolutely no need to replace a perfectly good ZF transmission!

Other members will be able to recommend the right gearbox specialist in your region. They don't need to be a Land Rover specialist, just a ZF specialist and they can diagnose. There's plenty of refurbished torque converters on ebay, if you need one! 2015 Range Rover Autobiography 4.4 SDV8

Thank you gents. I’ll update when I can.

Jon

garyRR wrote:

Absolutely no need to replace a perfectly good ZF transmission!

It might be just a bit worn out after 190K though!

Also, in my experience the transmission can get pretty mullered from the TC's own friction material if driven on for too long, i.e. not caught early enough.

Given the OP want's to carry out an economically viable repair, there are loads of low mileage gearbox's and TC's for not a lot of money available. The low cost is testanment to the fact there's not a lot of demand second hand as they don't go wrong very often.!

How about this one from a low 60K mile L322 at £500:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295362620915

Or if you're feeling brave and handy with the spanners, stick a new oil pump on the front of this one at only £150:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354967655334

There's loads out there for around the £500 mark!

Jon 1992 RR Classic 3.9 efi Vogue
2014 Disco 4 HSE
===================
Both my fatties now gone...
Previous: 2011 L322 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE /// 2002 L322 4.4 V8 HSE /// 2009 Discovery 3 2.7 TDV6 XS /// 2004 Defender 90 TD5 /// 1993 110 V8 Snatch Landrover /// 2005 Discovery 3 2.7 TDV6 SE (Aus) /// 1990 110 Isuzu 3.9 County (Aus) /// 1976 Series III Trayback (Aus)

D3Jon wrote:

How about this one from a low 60K mile L322 at £500:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295362620915
Jon

OK so this is getting to be a pain

So I went to see the local specialist recommenced for ZF boxes as figured no time like the present etc.

Can you guys help me understand this better as I am starting to get the feeling that either my understanding of the auto box is wrong (admittedly with a limited knowledge base) or every place I go to see are doing the classic sales technique of "upselling" me a gearbox change/rebuild.

So the latest conversation with the ZF place in response to my suggestion to do a fluid swap to have a chance to eyeball the quality of the liquid broke out like this:

- Would do a fluid change but only as part of a gearbox "service" which they would charge me £400 + for (seems excessive)
- Would reluctantly change the torque convertor at a rough cost of £1000 to £1200, including labour of about £500 to remove and replace the trans (not totally unreasonable I guess??)
- But their main issue with the above was that they suspected the torque convertor was more likely to have been "worn out" due to something worn/wrong in the gearbox which would then entail a gearbox rebuild at circa £4k.

This is now the second place to point the finger of blame at the gearbox for being the cause of the issue.

So my question for you guys is this;

- With the caveat that the gearbox is on 190,000 miles but having had at least 2 fluid changes in its lifetime - is the torque convertor a part given to wear and tear in its own right?

Maybe my CSE engineering is rather out of date but like a manual car can wear its clutch out, is it not conceivable that the torque convertor in an auto box can also just reach its end of life without the gearbox necessarily needing major intervention?

Or am I just being an over optimistic fool using some bad man maths .............

Don't be shy, give me some tough love if I need it.

Jon