3.6 TDV8 (2007) VSE (110k miles)

When I first start up and I am manoeuvring slowly using the brake pedal to control the speed - for example reversing off the drive and moving slowly around parked cars I get a juddering when braking and in gear (Drive). If I deselect drive I get no juddering.

This symptom is only present when I am retarding the speed with the brake pedal and it only last for the first minute or two and doesn't recur until the car has been parked long enough to get cold. After I have travelled a few hundred yards there are no further symptoms until the next time.

I ran the fuel tank down to 30miles range a month or so ago and it seemed to coincide with the start of this juddering behaviour.

I had it serviced yesterday and explained what was happening. The nice chaps checked the diagnostics and said that there were EGR related errors which they cleared. I trust these guys. I emailed them this morning and asked if they could send me the error codes. I'm waiting on that.

So, I think the first thing to do is to use some Wynns EGR cleaner. It looks like I just disconnect the air intake hose from the air filter box, and spray into the hose one squirt at a time.

Does anyone have any comments/warnings/advice before i go ahead with this ?

Thanks
Mark

If you shoot egr cleaner into the air inlet any crud you loosen will end up passing through the engine and out the exhaust.
Having removed and totally cleaned the egr on my own car I would be reluctant to inject anything of the sort.
Cleaning the egr back to as new was a filthy laborious task that took me all morning. If a shot of liquid can do that the best of luck.
From my own experience I would have the egr removed, cleaned properly and reinstalled.
Each to their own

Fair point nicedayforit. Thanks. I have considered that, but having looked at the guide on here I am quite daunted by the process to get to the EGR - I looked at this:

https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic32601.html

I assume that the steps to get the old EGR out are the steps I would need to take to remove and clean it like you did. Im now 47, and at 17 I did an engine change on a Lancia with no experience it took me 8 days. In not entirely inept, but I do work with computers, not mechanicals and this guide (above) just looks about the most horrendously in-depth task. Not sure i am up to it.

Any comments nicedayforit ?

I'm not one for scaremongering but if you have any doubts about EGR operation I would suggest that you replace them rather than clean them. If one fails it can wreck the turbo then it's the end of the car.
Others may suggest deleting/blanking them which appears succesful but I have no personal experience of this so can't comment. I have changed EGR valves on a 120K engine, it was fiddly rather than difficult and for about £300 of parts it was fairly cheap peace of mind.

As above, best to check them out throughly. I check the actual vs commanded whenever I have serviced it given its a known issue.

A couple of years ago I got some very strange results on the actual vs commanded for both EGR's after it there was a fault code thrown for the positioning sensor.

Rather than just clear the codes I stripped it down to investigate and indeed one was just the “positioning sensor” but otherwise mechanically very smooth, the other one was mechanically rough with the little rollers being screwed resulting in a section that stuck or was jerky on diagnostics this one was clearly hunting trying to achieve the commanded position.

For us the diagnostic graphs showed one being erratic and the other smooth but didn’t operate in the full range.

Couldnt tell any difference to drive it either way but £350 in genuine parts and an afternoon under the bonnet was well worth it.

Ours were not actually very dirty, just a light coating of soot that could easily be wiped off but as one had a sensor fault and the other mechanically very rough they were replaced. Sold - Bell a 2015 MY16 Loire Blue Autobiography 4.4 SDV8
Previously George a 2007 MY07 Java Black VSE 3.6 TDV8
Previously a 04 MY04 Defender 90

My experience is only with my TD6 which is relatively simple if filthy and doesn't affect any coding.
Not sure about the TDV8.
No doubt there are others who can advise better than me.

I've just re read your symptoms, have you checked the codes again to see if the previous codes were red herrings?
If the codes aren't back but the symptoms persist it might be worth considering something else before condeming the EGRs.
If the transmission oils haven't been changed then they will likely be pretty shagged out at 110K miles?

From your description, 'slight juddering' when cold maneuvering, goes away when warmed up a bit.

I'd be looking at the drive train firstly.

Even something as simple as overnight rust forming on your brake discs could be a cause.

Then cold transmission fluid etc etc.

Best, Rich

Morning all,
thanks for all the comments so far.

The error was:
The fault code was (P045C-00) Exhaust gas circulation B, control circuit.

Unfortunatley I do not have a fault code reader, so not sure if the faults are recurring or not.

My preferences would be to not blank them off, there are discussions on here with links to .gov.uk sites that state removal of EGR or CAT is now an MOT failure. So that option is out.

My philiosphy is also "if it isn't broke..dont dont fix it". So, if it shows no signs of wear after a clean...mmm. What to do? Maybe you are right Cass, probably worth putting new ones in for peace of mind.
Transmission oils (and all others), and filters were all done about 2 years ago when I first bought the RR.

TJH1985, thanks

I have a little misting of oil around the sump gasket. Will check torque settings are right.

Front brake discs are warped, lipped, and pads at 2mm - next job to do.

Since picking the car up after the service I have noticed the issue is only present on occaison, sometimes not at all. Will monitor this, investigate, do sump, do brakes and see what happens.

I'm still pondering on the Wynns cleaning spray as well. My brain is telling me that the crap that the egr circulates goes straight back into the combustion chamber via the inlet manifold. With this in mind, surely any crud that is cleaned away by the Wynns would just be burnt off and exhausted...right?

Thanks again everyone.

M

"Codes P045C EGR control circuit "B" means no low voltage change to indicate the EGR is opening or closing. P045D is basically identical but it means circuit high as opposed to low/"

Sounds like it might benefit from a clean


Long shot, but....
What about a tank full of Shell or BP ? Might that help after 2 years of tesco diesel ?

At some stage, I'm going to strip down the intake side of things and clean it back to new. Or just buy new bits and save all the work cleaning off  Gone to a good home: 2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE Buckingham Blue with Ivory and clear glass = "Rory"
2025MY Defender D350 90 in Silicon Silver on coils
1974 Series 3 Lightweight = "Millie"
Many, many other Landies over the years
My preferred specialist: www.glenrands.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------

A word from the wise. Treat them as service items and replace them.

https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic47199.html __
2018 L405 3.0 TDV6 Vogue SE Fuji White
2000 4.6 V8 HSE Oxford Blue
1994 3.9 V8 Vogue Ardennes Green - resto project

Land Rover History:
2010 3.6 TDV8 Autobiography Stornoway Grey
2001 Discovery 2 TD5 GS
1999 Discovery 2 V8i XS
1994 Discovery 300Tdi
1993 Discovery 200Tdi
1989 Range Rover Vogue SE 3.5EFi
1976 Series 3 2.25
1977 Range Rover 2 door 3.5 Carb

J-rov, I am only a short way into your link/post. Wow. I wish I had the courage,space and tools to do that.

I'm hoping on a few tank fulls of Shell to sort me out at the moment

By any chance was it your RR sitting in a local Leicestershire specialists workshop for most of the last two years? They had a 322 with complex engine issues, it belonged to a customer and the first specialist to have a go at it, drew a blank, ran up a lot of bills and fixed little or nothing. It then arrived in pieces at the Leicestershire place until the customer took it back.

Hi, yeah was a bit of a mission but worth doing as the cost of giving it to a garage was far more (plus I never had confidence they could do it properly!). Just had to be methodical and think ahead!

I had your symptoms for a few weeks before it happened, so please be careful!

No, the vehicle you describe wasn't mine. I'd be fuming if i was it's owner! __
2018 L405 3.0 TDV6 Vogue SE Fuji White
2000 4.6 V8 HSE Oxford Blue
1994 3.9 V8 Vogue Ardennes Green - resto project

Land Rover History:
2010 3.6 TDV8 Autobiography Stornoway Grey
2001 Discovery 2 TD5 GS
1999 Discovery 2 V8i XS
1994 Discovery 300Tdi
1993 Discovery 200Tdi
1989 Range Rover Vogue SE 3.5EFi
1976 Series 3 2.25
1977 Range Rover 2 door 3.5 Carb

Yes, I was always surprised to see it there, every time I went to the indy. Taking up workshop space, with a workshop blanket over the front and various bits of the car and engine stored in the cabin and boot. A heart breaking sight to see, and I would have been v unhappy as well.

Thanks for the sage advice. There is no chance to get the work done at my local until after xmas. I guess by then I will know if it is just a glitch on something more persistent.

This is my second car in recent years that can cause such horrendous costs, concerns and worry. I think after this one, I might just aim to buy a car that isn't going to eat itself.