Two issues:

No. 1 - Poor 3 to 4 shift

In auto mode when changing from 3rd to 4th there is no distinct change. During all other upshifts you can see the tacho needle drop quickly from a higher value to a lower one - nicely smoothed out by the TC. When shifting from 3 to 4 however the needle hovers at much the same revs as 3rd for a couple of seconds and then drops. I'm not absolutely sure if it's then in 4th or has gone to 5th. Pity the dash display doesn't give an indication on auto mode.

I thought it was the same in command shift but I've just been round the block and tested it and it seems perfectly OK - which is encouraging as I was thinking that a clutch or brake must be duff so fingers crossed they're not.

I've read loads of threads about solenoids but a) I'm not sure that they related to this kind of symptom and b) surely it'd be the same in command shift?


No. 2 - Doesn't like changing changing down

When in a high gear (typically 5th or 6th) but at less than 1500 rpm and trying to accelerate gently - nothing happens! i.e it clearly should change down but it doesn't. If the throttle is steadily increased further it eventually seems to realise that it is now well outside it proper operating parameters and makes some daft shift decision (usually up - when you wanted down) with a big thump. I get the impression without the involvement of the TC.

After one of these little brainstorms it doesn't like to change at all for a wee while. Doesn't change down when Sport mode engaged and won't do command shift.

After a while (coupe of minutes?) it forgets all about it and returns to "normal".

This isn't such a problem when not towing, as it often just torques it way out of trouble, but with the caravan on it makes for some very interesting situations....

History:
Box had a funny vibration issue 20k miles ago which gradually improved after a double flush and is now only barely discernible when accelerating briskly:
http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic33415.html

After that it developed a bit of TC judder (mostly when towing uphill) which was resolved with a couple of tubes of "Dr Tranny".

After that it had a phase of suddenly going into "Transmission failure" mode but I don't think it's done that for a year or more now.

It's a shame cos it's been a brilliant car apart from all these transmission issues.

Any ideas / advice would be very, very welcome! 2008 TDV8 Vogue

Your gearbox was trying to tell you it had an issue when it began to judder

You masked it with a flush

You then compounded the problem with adding Dr Tranny


My own gearbox had one of the brainfarts and wouldn’t change up or down. Net result was a shafted gearbox

Had you dealt with the symptoms 20,000 miles ago, you may now not be in the position of needing a gearbox rebuild...

A “megaflush” is not a magic cure. It is for preventative maintenance ONLY

Running in manual shift mode ups the operating pressure in the system as it doesn't know when you might want to change gear so it holds pressure high in a permanent state of readiness. This often masks a problem in the box and gives false confidence that the problem isn't significant. I did with mine and so I wasted money on oil and filter (240GBP).

Best bet is to have it checked out by a reputable gearbox specialist. I did with mine and faced the worst case scenario. Total bill was 2220GBP. Gearbox is now great and I will be changing oil every 40k miles from now on.

Rob 05 L322 4.2SC
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Mikey, have you ever thought of becoming a doctor? Your bedside manner is impeccable:)

Seriously, what could I have done 20K miles ago that might have avoided a rebuild now? Might help someone else.

It'd done 80K so the oil needed changing (actually did a double change rather than a megaflush) and it certainly eliminated the slight vibration (which was just when driving through 2nd gear I think).

The judder was TC rather gearbox related and there's been no judder for two and a half years now.

I'd be ecstatic if I thought I could sort things out for £2.5K but, given the extent of the job to get the box out and back in again (not mention the difficulty in finding someone you trust to do the work properly) I'd really like to have some idea of what we're trying to fix rather than just hope that it gets fixed in the course of a general rebuild. I'd also like to explore any less dramatic potential fixes before taking the plunge!

The reluctance to change down isn't such an issue as it's easy to drive around. Interestingly, it's fine when using cruise control. The cruise program changes down earlier and it never gets into that low rev state.

RRPhil says in another post that first thing to suspect with shift issues are solenoids. In the change from 3 to 4 clutch B is deactivated and clutch E activated. Clutch E stays activated in 5th and 6th. I have no problem with 5th or 6th and, given that they are higher ratios the torque loading on the E clutch is potentially higher. So, clutch E itself looks sound?

I've just read a 7 page thread (entitled "Calling RRPhil") by ebejema who had a very similar problem back in 2011. RRPhil said there that as he was experiencing no issues in 5th and 6th the E clutch should be OK as slipping would be detected and limp mode engaged to protect the clutch.

ebejama eventually fixed the problem by replacing all the solenoids. as this is a sub £500 job I'm thinking it's worth a shot.

Rob - that's interesting re the pressure - hadn't heard that before.

Any other views, experiences, suggestions etc welcome of course. 2008 TDV8 Vogue

If manual works (at higher pressure), then it may point toward solenoids or even the bridge seal I guess. You will be changing the bridge seal if the mechatronic comes off anyway I hope.

I'd be a bit worried about the shifting down recalcitrance. Maybe it's seeing low pressure somewhere and refusing, but I'd expect DTCs in that case. Do you have an IID Tool or equivalent to check?

Hopefully RRPhil can weigh in at one point.

Hi, I don't have an IID tool but I do have a mate with a garage so will try to get it there soon and see what's in there.

Some time ago we got a P0730 "Incorrect gear ratio" and a P0735 "Gear 5 incorrect ratio" - which I guess could be logical if it was expecting 5th and got one of the barmy ratios that are possible in an auto!

Another thing that may point to a pressure issue is that the 3-4 shift seems fine for a couple miles when cold. It also seems to downshift well too but this may be because the "cold" map (like the cruise one) keeps the revs higher?

A view from RRPhil would indeed be manna from heaven! 2008 TDV8 Vogue

I had similar ish problems. The cheapest option I would try now if I were you would be a gearbox firmware update using the iid tool. Worth a shot for how much it costs. I'd also check the fluid level is correct. Then check the right fluid was used when you had it serviced. Start with the simple cheap things before going straight for the £2.5k option.

If you have had incorrect ratio faults I'm afraid the gearbox is knackered I wouldn't waste any money on trying anything else put it towards a recon box

Wiz,

On what knowledge / experience are you basing that opinion? See my comment above; "I'd really like to have some idea of what we're trying to fix rather than just hope that it gets fixed in the course of a general rebuild".

Also, the bulk of the "gearbox" is gears, brakes & clutches and, as far as I can tell, they all seem to be doing their jobs. The problems seem to be more "control" related so pointing to mechatronic / ECU perhaps? The oil pressure aspect is an interesting grey area between the control and mechanical elements.

Kezbo, yes, I've thought about the firmware reflash - where would I get the file from? Can this be done with my pals "Sun diagnostic" kit or does it have to be the IID? Wouldn't mind lashing out for the IID tool if it lets me tweak all the other customisable settings.

Some sellers of solenoid kits include a "protective foam sleeve" p/n 1068327241 - can anyone explain what it is - where it goes - what it does - is it needed?

Also, replacing the "Bridge Seal" is mentioned in a post above but I don't see anything with that name in the parts list. Can anyone give a p/n & a good source for that?

Thanks to all. 2008 TDV8 Vogue

Only the ones I've seen with ratio faults have required rebuilds

I would say it looking like the mechatronic unit, from experiencing the same symptoms.

However, by the time mine was diagnosed it's poor changes for x number of months/years before my ownership meant a rebuild was necessary as the box was contaminated with metal which could have caused the valves in the new mechatronic to be damaged again.

The garage that did mine tried all the "cheap" fixes first like filter and oil change, flush etc, but each time they did it got worse. __
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elandri wrote:

Some sellers of solenoid kits include a "protective foam sleeve" p/n 1068327241 - can anyone explain what it is - where it goes - what it does - is it needed?

Also, replacing the "Bridge Seal" is mentioned in a post above but I don't see anything with that name in the parts list. Can anyone give a p/n & a good source for that?

The purpose of the foam strip is to cover the exposed solenoid contacts to prevent any metallic particles in the fluid from shorting them out. To be honest, if you have metallic debris floating around in the fluid then this is probably the least of your problems.

Click image to enlarge

The bridge seal (and Land Rover part number) is shown in this post : http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/post183123.html#183123

Phil

Many thanks Phil,

Will get the parts noted on the other post on order.

The foam strip's purpose does seem a bit bizarre then - but there was no metal evident in the oil /magnet when I double changed the fluid at 82K. It has 102K miles now.

What's your view re likely efficacy of the solenoid change on the 3-4 issue particularly and have you any theories as to the possible cause of reluctance to change down at low revs? 2008 TDV8 Vogue

elandri wrote:

Kezbo, yes, I've thought about the firmware reflash - where would I get the file from? Can this be done with my pals "Sun diagnostic" kit or does it have to be the IID? Wouldn't mind lashing out for the IID tool if it lets me tweak all the other customisable settings.

Hi Phil, thanks for your info re part numbers. The (7) new solenoids, seals, foam strip & connector shroud were installed on Tuesday along with 7 litres of liquid gold .

It appears to have cured the reluctance to change down but had no effect on the 3-4 shift issue (which is exactly the opposite of what I was expecting!).

What to do next ? My thinking is that, if I can get to a position where I’m pretty confident that the issue is in the Mechatronic unit, I’d be happy to splash out on a ZF remanufactured part and be done with it.

To re-iterate and clarify previous posts:
1 The issue is still evident, to a lesser extent perhaps, in command shift (unless the box is cold when it’s fine for a couple of minutes)
2 It does actually go into 4th (originally wasn’t sure if it was 5th) after a couple of seconds
3 Once it’s in 4th I can detect no slip through 4th, 5th, 6th even when towing.

So, how to narrow the problem to the mechatronic unit? In your March 2013 dialogue with ebajama you note the elements involved:
“1. The EDS4 proportional solenoid (blue cap) is activated to provide pressure to Shift Valve 2
2. The MV1 solenoid (black cap) is activated to move Shift Valve 1 against its preload spring to open up the hydraulic circuit from Shift Valve 2 to the E-clutch holding & clutch valves (this is the circuit with the accumulator/damper in it)
3. The EDS2 proportional solenoid (blue cap) is deactivated to depressurise the B-clutch holding & clutch valves and therefore disengage the B-clutch”

Is the MV1 solenoid what is also referred to as the “Shift Control Solenoid” in some documentation and “Shift Lock Solenoid” in the IID tool TCM live values section?

You suggested to him taking a data capture with his Faultmate and trying to slow down the shift as the frame rate was only 1 per sec. I’m towing with the car over the weekend which slows everything down nicely so might be a good opportunity to understand what’s going on? The IID can do 16 samples per sec but divided between how many elements one is monitoring. What are the fewest you’d need to get a clear picture and which are they? Also, the IID can use various TCM conditions as “triggers” that can be used to start and stop the capture. Can you advise on suitable parameters for that? 2008 TDV8 Vogue