^^ I wish I could find the flaw in your argument. I can't.

^

miggit wrote:

Hydrogen fuel cells, only produce heat, electricity, and water, no greenhouse gasses at all.

Hence the Solar PV panels on the roof at home. Hydrogen generation using renewable resources would be the only way to go in this scenario. Most houses can fit enough PV panels on their roof to generate a surplus during the day, especially if the family is out to work/school/shopping. The surplus could be used to generate hydrogen from water by electrolysis and store that for the evening/night/filling the car up.

If all hydrogen is generated using water and renewable electricity (at shopping centers, fuel stations, work etc. etc.) we wouldn't need to many tankers driving around to deliver it either.

Fit the car with a small but high efficiency (not available yet but coming) PV panel and during the day your battery is topped up and when it is full the hydrogen generation process fills up the hydrogen tank.

Within a few years/decades we would be able to generate more and more from renewable sources and build up the renewable network.

As for the government missing out on their taxes, big issue, but hey they are going to spend billions on climate change effect mitigation if we don't start reducing our output. Governments overspend on silly stuff, the war on drugs for example, costing trillions of dollars but still not doing any good and there are a lot of other areas where the government can reduce cost. Their own fuel use/cost can come down if their fleets are EV etc. etc.

Those items are a part of the bigger picture but it still does not take away the real problem O&G are not sustainable for more than a few decades so we can stick our heads in the sand or bite the bullet and start changing now  MY 2010 5.0 SC Galway green and sand interior!!
Have the Faultmate MSV2 Extreme to be tinkering with the settings etc. !!

It's just some peoople think that because hydrogen is everywhere you've just got to scoop it up and put it in your car.

Well you're right, it is extremely abundant but needs to be liberated  MY 2010 5.0 SC Galway green and sand interior!!
Have the Faultmate MSV2 Extreme to be tinkering with the settings etc. !!

Yes, I do realise that you need water, and a lot of power. At this moment in time, hydrogen is not really a cost effective gas to produce, I suspect, not that I'm a scientist, it probably takes a kw of power to produce enough hydrogen to make a kw of electricity or less. I say this because, if it took a kw of power to make enough hydrogen to produce 2kw of electricity we would be doing it already.
Until the day that some bright spark invents a method of stripping hydrogen from water chemically or bio chemically, it's not really going to be the power of choice.
Who knows next week someone could crack the problem of cold fusion and we'll all be driving nuclear powered cars, if this happens then batteries will be a thing of the past, along with fossil fuels. Until someone comes up with an alternative means of providing propulsion, that can be regenerated in a few minutes, and give the flexibility of oil, no one is really going to change. And when you look at all the echo friendly means of transport, the only ones that are in mass use, involve an oil powered combustion engine.
Oil power is the biggest thing that's advanced mankind in centuries, and while the oil is running out, we are still finding ways to power the internal combustion engine with alternative fuels, like bio diesel and ethanol. Maybe the best way to go forward is to combine all the different forms or propulsion and make a real bio friendly hybrid. Yesterday I couldn't spell Engineer... Today I are one!
Inventor of the 'Guide-o-Matic automatic wheel alignment tool'
Former long term L322 owner, Up/Down graded to a Classic Tractor!

As per the above posts:

Yes, CREATING hydrogen is extremely energy intensive. You only need to strip it out of water. That's the problem with e=mc2, c is really big.

Sorry miggit, but the universe just isn't set up to allow 2kW of H2 to be produced by 1 kW of power. Thermodynamics is a . Burning hydrogen in a modified combustion engine will return efficiencies similar to petroleum based combustion engines. A hydrogen fuel cell will give an energy output very similar to its energy input. They are very efficient. Following ebajema's premiss, if we have a ample supply of cheap, renewable energy, a H2 combustion engine may well be 'good enough.'

Regarding a new biochemical way of doing this, remember, using sunlight to grow plants, converting the plants into alcohol and the burning them in an engine is already being done in many places around the world. Plants have been perfecting this for about 3 billion years. I'm not saying we couldn't do better, but they have a hell of a big head start.

Getting back to Ebajema's original idea - a new power train. I've wondered about the opposite, consumers buying good solid chassises with batteries sandwiched into the. And electric motors driving all the wheels, then purchasing new, fashionable bodies for the cars every few years when the want a change. Things are becoming more and more modular. Think: you could plunk your L322 body, with all its looks, comfort and performance on top of a integrated power train/chassis with at least all the tech if a Tesla.

That's General Motors idea, you don't work for them do ya?
Bio chemical plants, you lost me at alcohol, think I was too interested in sampling, Hic!
The main question is how big do the batteries have to be, for a four engined FFRR, if it was to have a small echo friendly powered generator and regen braking?
I said before a Smart engined powered gen set, but thinking about this it would be better to have a Bio Diesel unit, they will run more efficiently, and if your short on fuel you could fill up at the nearest corner store, cooking oils a lot cheaper here than mineral! Plus you can try and scrounge some from the chip shop!
And I can see you cringing from the thought of a single cylinder diesel rattling away under your bonnet, and I say, I'm already driving a BMW tractor, how much worse can it get?  Yesterday I couldn't spell Engineer... Today I are one!
Inventor of the 'Guide-o-Matic automatic wheel alignment tool'
Former long term L322 owner, Up/Down graded to a Classic Tractor!

miggit
No worries. I don't work for GM. Given both their business acumen and their engineering (ignition locks), I would seriously wonder about anyone who worked for them! I was actually thinking of the Brazilians. They run a lot of cars on alcohol from sugar cane.

Yes, I'm impressed by the diesels that can run on old chip shop oil. I think the only downside would be my waistline. After smelling fish & chips every ride, I think I'd end up eating too much.

To be honest i'd jump at it as i could leave it charging up overnight on the free electric i could generate for it and enjoy topping it up at workplaces where allowed. Also a 400mile range covers quite a bit but it would need to 100% support the quick charging stations that can get near 80% charge in 30mins or less.

The biggest advantage i can think of in the FF is that it probably wouldnt weigh anymore than the standard drive train and think of all the batteries you could have up front to maintain the front end wieght from the engine being removed. Hub motors mean nice offroad ability still and less moving parts to worry about breaking.

Where the fuel tank is you could get away with a small genset there to keep it topped up with say a 30litre tank as well which should easily see the range more like 800.

My other big concern would be the FBH and heating system as ideally you'd want that to run itself off the fuel in the tank so not taking as much power from the batteries. FFRR MY06 facelift With TDV8 Alloys Zeros/ATR's
Mantec Sump Guard, Rigid Load liner, MY10 BT upgrade.

FYI my main car runs on SVO all day long with the odd litre of diesel chucked in, as well as old engine oil, fuel filter drain offs...

And i dont have a fishy chips every night and have a 30" waist line and 75kg weight

But then I am a tight ar53 ive been told and it only costs me 60p/litre to put in the car. Not taking into account the engine oil/diesel drain offs used  FFRR MY06 facelift With TDV8 Alloys Zeros/ATR's
Mantec Sump Guard, Rigid Load liner, MY10 BT upgrade.