When I bought mine back in March it had several declared faults, the main one being a slightly hard first to second change, the seller said he had had the rear main crank seal on the engine done and when he got it back it was doing it, they said that it would get better as the transmission relearned itself.... yeah right, thinks me.... it was still a cheap car even if I had to do the box and the rest was OK....

I thought I may as well check the gearbox oil and give it a change so bought some oil (supposedly LT71141) and a filter



Got it up on a ramp and drained the oil, out came bright and shiney new RED oil, it was obvious the sump had been off recently so I didn't bother changing the filter, just refilled it with the stuff I got.... RED again....

Then found out that the oil should be straw coloured, but thought, oh well if it's that bad for it the box is knackered already so why waste money on new oil, may as well wait till it gives up and get the box done....

Well that was 7000miles ago, the box is still just the same, the change from 1st to second is a bit hard under normal acceleration, all other changes are fine, if you do a full throttle take off the 1st to 2nd change is as smooth as it should be but there is then a slight slur as it changes into 3rd, it sort of hits neutral for a split second... I have developed the habit of pulling away then backing off just as it's about to drop into 2nd, let it change, and then pick up the throttle, this gives a perfectly smooth change and seems to be a bit kinder on the box....

After off roading and going up steep hills in low box for longer than about 20mins it will throw up a Trans Failsafe and stick in 4th gear, hasn't ever done it whilst driving up a steep hill, always seems to do it after, a quick turn off and back on and it is fine.... It has also done it twice under normal driving when hot but the other day did it whilst reversing off the drive when it was stone cold....

I sort of put this down to excess heat, although the Trans Heat message has never come up....

Whilst sorting out the air con pulley (another thread) I decided to have a look at the cooling, It's had a new rad and gearbox oil cooler some time recently (the seller said it had full history but he had lost it!!!!!!) but was running a bit hot when I got it and it appeared to be the thermostat sticking, I removed it to see if that was the issue and it certainly runs cooler now, was fine during the summer without one but I may fit one soon... It was also full of water with no antifreeze, the water was clean and fresh and didn't have any rust in it so I don't think it was in there for long... anyway, yesterday I had a look at the Gearbox oil cooler

The pipe from the bottom of the rad to the gearbox oil cooler thermostat felt cold at operating temperature, the other three pipes to it were hot... a bit of reading reveals that the thermostat should come on when the gearbox oil gets to about 80deg C, I can't see how this happens as the thermostat is in the water pipes and not the oil pipes so it can't be measuring oil temp, I took the thermostat out of the holder and it looks like a small version of a standard wax thermostat, it showed no movement when dunked in boiling water so I presumed it was faulty, I have left it out for now, I checked the flow from the bottom of the rad and it seems to be well above the minimum required, I can't do the check as they state as the new, Nissens, rad doesn't have a drain cock!! This pipe is still cold and from looking at the flow chart on Rave it has one flow to the stat from the top hose, one flow from the bottom of the header tank, the flow from the bottom of the radiator and a return to the thermostat housing, how can water flow from the bottom of the rad when it is getting a flow direct from the top hose, surely this water, at engine temp, will outflow the reduced flow that comes from the bottom of the rad??

Anyway... With a fully warm Engine coolant temp of 105deg, the radiator temp, with the fan on is 65deg, the hose from the rad is cold and the gearbox temp is 118deg, the gearbox oil cooler was at about 100deg with an infared thermometer so it appears to be working although I suppose it maybe partially blocked....

Is this gearbox temp high?? the only thing I can find is that the Trans Heat comes in at 130deg....

When the Trans Failsafe cuts in it stores the following codes, which reset and don't appear untill it does it again

Transmission ECU
(0x85) Canbus transfer box timeout general

Tansfer Box ECU
(0x5212) Battery Undervolt (Battey is new and alternator is working fine)
(0x52F2) Instr3 lost from canbus

Can anyone shed any light, thoughts or mad ramblings (as above) on any of this????

Shall I just leave it and wait till it gives up totally or have a play???

Sorry for the ridiculously long post

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated  Pete

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i dont know specifics on the 6HPs but the 4HPs should run at 95deg, 80-110 acceptable working range, ie upto 110 after being worked hard, 120 deg C is not good, terminal damage occurs at 135deg C.

it seems yours is running too hot. Cheers

James

Mine is the ZF 5HP24 but I guess they won't be a million miles apart...

Is it running hot because it has the wrong oil and is knackered or is it running hot for other reasons and will get knackered.... that's the dilemma....

Is it worth trying to sort it or just change it??? Pete

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2011 L322 Vogue SE 4.4 TDV8 Baltic Blue. Parchment over Navy Interior. Sold
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alot of the ZF boxes in my experience have difficult shifts 1 to 2nd for the first shift of the box in that cycle straight after a fluid change, have a look on the ashcroft site on freq questions part. this would of cleared though in your 7k miles since fluid change.

they run hot if the oil isin't what its meant to be, or blocked coolers, once they have run hot the boxes do deteriorate.

from your figures the cooler is certainly cooling, i dont know how much it should cool it by but 18deg seems reasonable but the input temp i would say is far too high for starters under normal usage.

your offroad for 20mins will give that issue due to TC slippage and the box no doubt doing lots of changes with ltd lockup combined with start/stop with steep gradients. its like sitting with it in D and the brakes on, not moving, this just generates heat and TC slippage and leads to wear on TC.

i guess your drive is steep if it threw up a temp fault from start up.

it could be a worn TC that is superheating the oil and this gives rise to other probs? how many miles?

whether the gbox is goosed or not it works, or can be driven to a degree to make it work currently.

it does sound like (due to cooling system history changes) that the gbox oil has been allowed to get too hot at some point in the past and thus the now change issue.

sort the cooling on the gbox first wrt the stat. can you screen dump and post up the RAVE cooling pics, i dont have them. Cheers

James

As I said above I've never had the Trans Heat message, it's always been the Trans Failsafe....

I'm just loathed to change the cooler, pipes, carrier, thermostat, oil and filter and then have to do them all again if the box is goosed and they are full of metal....

Just been having another look at the thermostat and it maybe that the stat stops the flow from the top hose with water at its hottest, when it gets to temp, and then allows the flow from the radiator to cool the cooler??!!?!? a sort of backwards thermostat....


Do you mean the flow chart, they only show one with a FBH but most will be the same...

Click image to enlarge

Don't know whats happening with photobucket... I'll try again

Sorted... Pete

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[quote="Haylands"]


To be fair to Tetrosyl, they don’t claim on the bottle that the fluid “meets the requirements of” or “is recommended for” like many other manufacturers of universal inventory-reduction fluids like this do, they simply list a set of fluid specifications and tell you that it’s your responsibility to decide if the fluid is suitable for your vehicle or not.

Claiming that the same fluid satisfies the requirements of GM Dexron VI/BMW 7045E (GM 5L40-E) and LT71141 (ZF 5HP24) and Ford Mercon SP (ZF 6HP26) would ignore the fact that these fluids use different friction modifier packs which has a critical effect on the transmission’s clutching elements - and in particular the torque converter lock-up clutch - especially when it is being operated in its continuous slip mode (approx. 3% slip) to isolate torsional vibration.

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Phil,

Do you think it's worth trying to save this box, could the wrong oil be throwing up the fault codes and Trans failsafe, or should I call it quits and get a recon one???

Cheers Pete

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2014 L405 Autobiography SDV8 4.4 Loire Blue Ebony interior
2011 L322 Vogue SE 4.4 TDV8 Baltic Blue. Parchment over Navy Interior. Sold
2012 L322 Autobiography 5.0 Supercharged Ipanema Sand, Jet Interior. Sold
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Regarding the statement from the garage on learning new adaptions – only long term adaptions are stored in the controller once the ignition is turned off i.e. those that relate to the gradual change in performance of the transmission over thousands of miles - provided the fluid characteristics don’t suddenly change. In other words the controller progressively modulates the clutch pressures to maintain the slip times over the transmission’s lifetime. A sudden change to the new friction characteristics of Dexron (red) fluid could upset this and the adaptions will have a limited range over which they can make corrections.

As I’ve stated many times in the past, the TRANS FAILSAFE PROG message is usually caused by low battery voltage (check you’re getting 14V over the terminals at tickover) or a faulty transfer box shift motor potentiometer (check that you can select low range and then get back into high again). Only once these two causes have been ruled out should you consider if the fault might lie with the transmission itself. If it is the transmission, the usual cause is that the ECU has detected clutch slip from the signals supplied by the two speed sensors.

Buying a re-manufactured transmission is a complete lottery as you’ve no idea what has been replaced and what hasn’t. For that reason I’d be tempted to rebuild your existing box with an overhaul kit, new friction plates and a remanufactured torque converter (plus new Filtran filter and the correct Mobil fluid of course). You can do this yourself for under £800 (if you have alternative transport, the facilities and can afford the time) and at least you then know exactly what’s what.

When I rebuild 5HP24s with 100,000+ miles on them they are invariably in mint condition except for a failed bearing or seal and, once repaired, are then ready for another 100,000 miles of use. I wish the same could be said for the GM 5L40-E used in the TD6 models.

Phil

Phil,

Thanks for your help, much appreciated, think I'll have a go at getting all the oil out of this one and trying with the correct fluid, can I remove the return pipe from the oil cooler and pump it through in stages to get all the old oil out??... Do you know the cheapest place to get the correct fluid, and how much will it take to flush all the old out....

If that fails I'll get on your waiting list, read on another thread that your good lady only lets you in the shed for an hour a day... is she open to bribery??? Pete

__________________________________________________
2014 L405 Autobiography SDV8 4.4 Loire Blue Ebony interior
2011 L322 Vogue SE 4.4 TDV8 Baltic Blue. Parchment over Navy Interior. Sold
2012 L322 Autobiography 5.0 Supercharged Ipanema Sand, Jet Interior. Sold
2002 L322 Vogue 4.4 V8 Epson Green, Ivory over Aspen Interior (Fatty Offroader) Sold
-Click for Project Fatty off roader-